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The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

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Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#81
Because the article just offers a single example, and seems to center on the lack of available tenure track positions, I'm going to take a more holistic view that gets at the major issue: is current research funding at the appropriate level?

What would happen if we increased research funding by X percent? How did we settle on the current funding levels? I would be curious to see a reasonable source for this. A cursory google search mostly returned opinion pieces that we should increase funding for science. I agree, but hard(er) numbers would be better. It would be great to see a back-of-the-envelope ROI for X percent funding increase in T time. Obviously funding can be applied in many ways, and the ROI is difficult to measure, but someone must have studied it.

For the immediate future, the US remains the best place for research. But dominance can begin to change before the effects become obvious, like a large company that's still profitable long after it's become irrelevant.

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#82

While I don't feel that there is risk of brain drain because of the reasons listed in the article, I do believe there is that risk. To be honest, even though many European countries don't pay as much as the US for the same job, I found much more comfort around the ideas pushed in those countries. The culture I found in Sweden for instance is one that is much better for the employees than the fast-paced top-gun style…

What you say is so true even that micro-level. At my company, we were driven by by high code quality. We would try our best to minimize escalations, we will never release new code on Friday or late in a day because people have lives. We really made sure no one was working late or on weekends. And we were still competitive and profitable business. Then we get bought by a Fortune 500 company. Slowly new rules come in.…

It shouldn't be a trade off. You can get a pay raise and get a great work-life balance.

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps I'm too optimistic, but I think everything America needs to succeed and grow can be found right here in America. The problem is that it's sometimes cheaper to import foreign labor, or export domestic production.

Einstein, von Braun, Musk, Brin. Immigrants are more than cheap labor. edit just for a bit more diversity: Madeleine Albright, Schwarzenegger, Ang Lee, Tesla, Fermi, Audrey Hepburn, Sataya Nadella, Jerry Yang, Cary Grant... edit 2, correction: Ang Lee's Wikipedia page says he's a resident and not a US citizen. Another alien undercutting US labour like James Cameron and Ridley Scott.

Citing examples doesn't really convince anyone intellectually curious, determined or with momentum in the opposite idea. What you need to do to definitely drive the point is to compare "rock star per group". Then just compare the two values, and see which group has a higher "rock star" ratio, or whatever you want to call them. Pretty obvious, right?

Then you have go on and prove that for every one of those imported "rock stars", you wouldn't have gotten an equally great person from the local group. It's not immediately obvious that those things wouldn't have sprung up without that external "rock star" being brought in. We're often told that people aren't islands, so it may very well be that the local environment/culture is the one that helps create these "rock stars", and they just happen to be in the right place / right time.

I use "rock-star" because I have no idea what else to call them. Leaders, high-achievers, smart-people, role models?

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#84
Besides job offer salaries, we usually don't quantify other aspects such as social quality, family, housing conditions, etc... It is actually very hard or impossible in some cases to measure. US has definitely been winning with the salary advantage, but it is lacking the rest compared to many places. This would be the main reason that talents would eventually go away. There's no war, life conditions have been improved in many parts of the world, why not those places.

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#85

Because the article just offers a single example, and seems to center on the lack of available tenure track positions, I'm going to take a more holistic view that gets at the major issue: is current research funding at the appropriate level? What would happen if we increased research funding by X percent? How did we settle on the current funding levels? I would be curious to see a reasonable source for this. A cursor…

the article notes that US universities take 50% of a professor's research grant as operating overhead! (in China it's 10%.)

maybe US universities are just not efficient enough. maybe US universities are basically bloated, government subsidized fat-cats that cannot compete in the global marketplace.

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canada doesn't pay half as well as US when it comes to research in STEM. Every country has great talent right now, except US has the money.

That's true. The uptick in Canadian academic hiring is about something other than money, I'm guessing.

probably canadians going back home because ... family.

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#87

That's funny. Everyone I know in academia, from CS to Philosophy to Biology, is complaining there is a glut of "academics". They had PhDs but they can't positions in labs or get assistant professors to get on track for tenure because there are so many PhDs in academia. Maybe a brain drain is something the US needs. An oversupply of "brains" isn't a good thing. We need a balance.

From outsider pov, US has been draining talent from foreign countries for ages. Perhaps those talent going back might be a net positive.

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#88

While I don't feel that there is risk of brain drain because of the reasons listed in the article, I do believe there is that risk. To be honest, even though many European countries don't pay as much as the US for the same job, I found much more comfort around the ideas pushed in those countries. The culture I found in Sweden for instance is one that is much better for the employees than the fast-paced top-gun style…

60k in Sweden: 30k after tax 60k in U.S.: 40k after tax

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#89
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canada doesn't pay half as well as US when it comes to research in STEM. Every country has great talent right now, except US has the money.

US postdoc pay is around 40K. Cannot believe Canada pay around 20K.

Depends on field. I paid my last postdoc $90K CAD ($72K USD).

It's hard to find good postdocs in AI with the job market right now.

For biologists or other oversupplied PhDs, salaries are much lower.

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#90
post #36

> The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain He got a good offer from his home country. Isn't that a good thing that he gets to go home to his country and contribute there? he fact they can spare $250k for him to buy a house and $1M in grant money says a lot about China. Having been in academia for a bit, it seemed there was an oversupply of PhD in some fields. There are just not going to be enough university teachi…

$1M is a typical US startup fund, if not a little low.

The $250k for a house is weird, but in the US we make deals like spousal hires that might seem strange in other places.

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