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The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

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Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#111

Post by derping69 »

athenot wrote: post #76
derping69 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europe is able to do this because the US subsidizes their existence. 1. Pharma companies develop drugs with US subsidies and make their profits off US citizens while European countries put price ceilings on their drugs. 2. US essentially defends the world, allowing other countries to spend money elsewhere. http://www.ibtimes.com/how-us-subsidizes-cheap-drugs-europe-...

> Pharma companies develop drugs with US subsidies and make their profits off US citizens while European countries put price ceilings on their drugs. You conveniently forget the European drug companies who develop drugs—and completely pay for the research—while negotiating price ceilings, and then export the same drug to the US, selling it 5x the price for pure profit (minus distribution/marketing/lobby costs). Discl…

You proved my point, if US did what Euro countries do to us, European pharma companies would lose their primary profit source. It's a wealth drain from US citizens to Europe.

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#112

Post by notyourday »

krapp wrote: post #105
notyourday wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course US does. We really need to acknowledge that. Don't believe it? Support US withdrawing from mutual defense pacts with South Korea and Japan and NATO.

>Support US withdrawing from mutual defense pacts with South Korea and Japan and NATO. I wouldn't support the US reneging on its current security agreements, particularly with Japan, since we forced them into their current pacifist regime, but if South Korea, Japan and/or NATO wanted the US out, I wouldn't oppose it. I'm afraid there's a point at which America's overwhelming military, cultural and political dominance…

> I wouldn't support the US reneging on its current security agreements, particularly with Japan, since we forced them into their current pacifist regime, but if South Korea, Japan and/or NATO wanted the US out, I wouldn't oppose it.

Why? If US does nothing for their security, then there's zero point of US spending money on it. It is like code - if the line is NOOP, then it should just go.

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#113

Post by derping69 »

landryraccoon wrote: post #106
derping69 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europe is able to do this because the US subsidizes their existence. 1. Pharma companies develop drugs with US subsidies and make their profits off US citizens while European countries put price ceilings on their drugs. 2. US essentially defends the world, allowing other countries to spend money elsewhere. http://www.ibtimes.com/how-us-subsidizes-cheap-drugs-europe-...

The US chooses to do this though. The US can stop doing this anytime it wants to, nobody is forcing us to. If we don't like subsidizing Pharma companies maybe it should just stop doing it. It's not like Europe is asking us to. Similarly, I'm all for closing bases. If the US wants to close bases and cut military spending, who's stopping us?

Russia invading Europe is what's stopping us.

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#114

Post by rpiguy »

robotresearcher wrote: post #11
Overtonwindow wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps I'm too optimistic, but I think everything America needs to succeed and grow can be found right here in America. The problem is that it's sometimes cheaper to import foreign labor, or export domestic production.

Einstein, von Braun, Musk, Brin. Immigrants are more than cheap labor. edit just for a bit more diversity: Madeleine Albright, Schwarzenegger, Ang Lee, Tesla, Fermi, Audrey Hepburn, Sataya Nadella, Jerry Yang, Cary Grant... edit 2, correction: Ang Lee's Wikipedia page says he's a resident and not a US citizen. Another alien undercutting US labour like James Cameron and Ridley Scott.

Bad examples. Legal immigrants are different from "cheap labor" (H-1B and seasonal/temporary workers for example) which does depress wages. Once you have a green card you can demand higher wages and threaten to pack up and move to the competition.

I don't want to start an immigration argument, but the skills based system that has been proposed and was in place in Canada would have let Einstein, von Braun, Brin, Fermi, Yang, Albright, etc. into the country.

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#115

Post by WithHighProb »

frozenport wrote: post #90
rdtsc wrote: post #36

> The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain He got a good offer from his home country. Isn't that a good thing that he gets to go home to his country and contribute there? he fact they can spare $250k for him to buy a house and $1M in grant money says a lot about China. Having been in academia for a bit, it seemed there was an oversupply of PhD in some fields. There are just not going to be enough university teachi…

$1M is a typical US startup fund, if not a little low. The $250k for a house is weird, but in the US we make deals like spousal hires that might seem strange in other places.

I believe it's a down payment even it's not mentioned. It's a reasonable amount of money for down payment in suburban area of major cities in China

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#116

Post by robotresearcher »

rpiguy wrote: post #114
robotresearcher wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Einstein, von Braun, Musk, Brin. Immigrants are more than cheap labor. edit just for a bit more diversity: Madeleine Albright, Schwarzenegger, Ang Lee, Tesla, Fermi, Audrey Hepburn, Sataya Nadella, Jerry Yang, Cary Grant... edit 2, correction: Ang Lee's Wikipedia page says he's a resident and not a US citizen. Another alien undercutting US labour like James Cameron and Ridley Scott.

Bad examples. Legal immigrants are different from "cheap labor" (H-1B and seasonal/temporary workers for example) which does depress wages. Once you have a green card you can demand higher wages and threaten to pack up and move to the competition. I don't want to start an immigration argument, but the skills based system that has been proposed and was in place in Canada would have let Einstein, von Braun, Brin, Fermi…

You seem to be arguing something completely different to the grandparent comment.

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#117

Post by dmode »

holydude wrote: post #21
CorvusCrypto wrote: post #8

While I don't feel that there is risk of brain drain because of the reasons listed in the article, I do believe there is that risk. To be honest, even though many European countries don't pay as much as the US for the same job, I found much more comfort around the ideas pushed in those countries. The culture I found in Sweden for instance is one that is much better for the employees than the fast-paced top-gun style…

I found this to be pretty much a very biased subjective analogy. I am a european so I hope my "anti-european-rant" will be better accepted but lets see... Europeans often have this illusion of a working social democracy compared to the US suggesting their by default offered benefits to be superior to the offers from the US. That's not the case. In a lot of middle-income-class positions you get most of the things you…

I work in a company that has significant European presence. Plus I have worked for a year in Netherlands. Company approach to European employees and US employees are very different. Sure you get paid a lot more in the US, but most companies are very stingy with vacations (doesn't matter what the vacation rules are). People in our European offices are routinely out for the entire month of August, very little email during that period. They are also not expected to work beyond office hours. In addition, parental leaves are much more generous in European offices. Further, risk of layoffs are minimal.

When I used to work in Netherlands, regular employees only worked 4days / week for 36 hrs. They would take a day off in the middle of the week.

Having experienced both, the European work life is much more preferable to me, especially when you have a family.

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#118

Post by WithHighProb »

rb808 wrote: post #102

> Canada, France and China have been most open and aggressive about seeking out foreign talent studying in the United States. Financially, China's offers appear to be the most attractive. This was an amazing thing for me how China can pay more than Europe (and America). How the world has changed in just a few decades.

Not so surprising to me. The 1000s people plan and its version for younger people ("young 1000s") have been there for years actually. The reward is much more than what's listed in the surface. You can earn super high social status and chances to get tons of privileges.

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#119

Post by Xylakant »

danmaz74 wrote: post #99
CorvusCrypto wrote: post #8

While I don't feel that there is risk of brain drain because of the reasons listed in the article, I do believe there is that risk. To be honest, even though many European countries don't pay as much as the US for the same job, I found much more comfort around the ideas pushed in those countries. The culture I found in Sweden for instance is one that is much better for the employees than the fast-paced top-gun style…

> Well in Europe you usually get your 2 weeks Are there EU nations that give so little paid vacation? At least in the West, I think at least 3 weeks (non contiguous) is the norm...

In Europe 4 weeks of PTO is the minimum by law IIRC. I'm inclined to think the parent meant "2 continuous weeks" (I'd have to check but AFAIK at least in germany your employer has to grant that as well, either by law or by court interpretation of the law. Take this with a grain of salt, no legal advice, yadda yadda...)

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#120

Post by HillaryBriss »

deong wrote: post #110
HillaryBriss wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the article notes that US universities take 50% of a professor's research grant as operating overhead! (in China it's 10%.) maybe US universities are just not efficient enough. maybe US universities are basically bloated, government subsidized fat-cats that cannot compete in the global marketplace.

The university system was the envy of the world when it was run like a government program. It was only when we started running them like businesses that the system has gone pear-shaped.

i was going to say "maybe US universities are basically bloated, greedy corporate fat-cats that cannot compete in the global marketplace."

but it raised a question i couldn't answer: how do such unproductive blobs of corporate greed survive at all? i mean, if it's not government subsidies. is it some sort of protectionist regulatory regime (e.g. sort of like the TBTF Wall Street banks enjoy)? some kind of collusion? a secret cartel?

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