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Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

nytimes.com

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Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#191

Post by k-mcgrady »

the8472 wrote: post #121
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. But Apple is a private company, that is there prerogative.

The private company argument has limits. Common carrier status for one. At least in the EU there also are exemptions for repairing and interoperability. In my opinion repairability should extend to the ability for the owner of a device to side-load any software. If apple wants to police their own app-store, fine. But they shouldn't be allowed to exclude installation through other means. If they had not complete contr…

You can load your own software on to an iOS device provided you have access to the code. AFAIK iOS dev tools that enable you to load apps onto the device no longer require the $99 annual fee so if you download them you can side-load software.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#192

Post by atmosx »

bilbo0s wrote: post #157
coldcode wrote: post #138

You cannot do business in China without doing what they tell you. Period. Either you do it or you leave. I work for a big company (you would all know) and we have a large business unit in China, they own 52% of it. They decide what goes in and how customers can use it. We don't get to decide anything without government approval. It's so easy to claim the West shouldn't do what the leadership of China wants in China,…

I suppose there are the questions of law and fiduciary duties. If it's the law, it's the law. In China, it's the law to remove VPN apps. I suppose it's really not much different than the laws in the US that compel companies to give the government access to my information if they request such access. It's just the law, it's not really Facebook and Google trying to screw me. All that said, I think what most posters are…

For you the fact that something is law might tramp morality. Law vs morality is an ancient struggle[1].

[1] http://www.markedbyteachers.com/as-and-a-level/classics/anti...

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#193

Post by Tepix »

You don't need their closed app store. Free workaround:

• apply for a free Apple developer account,

• compile your own copy of https://github.com/mtigas/OnionBrowser or https://github.com/yuyao110120/ShadowVPN-iOS and

• install it on your own iDevice

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#194

Post by dis-sys »

Kurtz79 wrote: post #126
pipio21 wrote: post #65

Just common sense, given that the China gobertment has made usage of VPNs illegal. What do you expect? People in China could continue using app store accounts created in other countries as usual. And most educated people continue using VPNs too. Normal people are becoming experts in encription, security... It worries me more that countries like the UK and the US want to follow China, in that order.

"And most educated people continue using VPNs too. Normal people are becoming experts in encription, security..." As I'm not familiar with China or its (native) people, I have no grounds to refute the statement above, but is it really true ? My experience is that a large number of people in the West ("educated" or not) are barely interested even in the information and news that are readily available to them, and most…

There is no such mentioned risk for using VPN. I am posting here from Shanghai using my VPN. It has been going on for more than a decade and I couldn't name any single person who got arrested/charged/or even questioned for using so called "illegal" VPN.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#195

Post by afarrell »

deathanatos wrote: post #187
coldcode wrote: post #138

You cannot do business in China without doing what they tell you. Period. Either you do it or you leave. I work for a big company (you would all know) and we have a large business unit in China, they own 52% of it. They decide what goes in and how customers can use it. We don't get to decide anything without government approval. It's so easy to claim the West shouldn't do what the leadership of China wants in China,…

> It's so easy to claim the West shouldn't do what the leadership of China wants in China, but in reality the only alternative is to abandon China to those who will do what they are ordered to. That line of "reasoning" makes it a self-fulfilling prophecy, then. (It additionally feels ethically unsound to me; the "if I don't do it, someone else will, therefore it's okay" — no, it's still not okay. And that's what peop…

But it is still game-theoretically correct.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#196

Post by seanmcdirmid »

rekado wrote: post #149
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you consider selection, it winds up the same. Say in china if you follow the pollution laws, your competitors will undercut you and they won't suffer any consequences because rule of law is weak. So if you follow the rules, you go out of business, you don't exist anymore, leaving just polluting companies around. Likewise, Apple can play China's game, or just cease to exist in china where someone else will merely…

I don't think Apple is going to die if they don't sell in China.

They get what...30-40% of their profits from China?

Here is how it would play out: Tim announces they are leaving China, Apple stock loses 90% of its value overnight, Tim is removed as CEO, new CEO comes in and says they are staying in China, Apple stock recovers 70% of its value.

So ya, even if Apple isn't selected out, Tim certainly would be. You are suggesting actions that a publicly traded company just cannot make. Don't try to outsource such morality to companies, they don't have the ability to act like that and exist at the same time.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#197

Post by tormeh »

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #167
falcolas wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could Apple really ever decide to not do any business in China - could they extract their phone/computer business without affecting their manufacturing business? Without access to Shenzhen and Foxconn, it seems like it would be a literal corporate suicide.

Well, I don't know--but given that Foxconn is apparently planning to open a factory in the US, I would suspect it shouldn't be all that impossible? Also, do you think that China doesn't care about unemployment and exports? I mean, Foxconn is not a charity, they are effectively an exporter of a part of the value of Apple products, and they employ people building Apple products, if they kick out Apple, that money will…

The unemployment from Foxconn's closure wouldn't really make a dent, and would go away pretty quickly. Opening up access to information would be hard to reverse later without facing the same argument with Apple as before. The only reasonable solution is to not yield to Apple.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#198

Post by enraged_camel »

xienze wrote: post #175
coldcode wrote: post #138

You cannot do business in China without doing what they tell you. Period. Either you do it or you leave. I work for a big company (you would all know) and we have a large business unit in China, they own 52% of it. They decide what goes in and how customers can use it. We don't get to decide anything without government approval. It's so easy to claim the West shouldn't do what the leadership of China wants in China,…

> You cannot do business in China without doing what they tell you. Of course, I get that. But it's always companies like Apple that make so much noise about social justice who don't stick to their guns when China's involved.

I don't get your complaint at all. What would you rather have them do? What would "sticking to their guns" involve?

Or would you rather have them not "make so much noise" about social justice?

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#199

Post by Clubber »

FRex wrote: post #171
humanrebar wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The phone market isn't exactly open. There is more or less a government chartered oligopoly in mobile data industry. Those companies were leveraged to create the initial consumer lock in that Apple enjoys now. Interoperability without Apple's consent is also possible but it's a government chartered monopoly on technology (copyrights, patents, bans on circumvention) that prevents that. All that being said, you're talk…

I'm not saying it's open. But clearly capitalism doesn't lead to solutions of all problems ever, as evidenced by this. But then a right winger will visit Shanghai, talk to a bunch of happy Chinese and make a YouTube video where he says that in China everyone is happy and rich while in EU your daily life is a struggle against Calais EuroTunnel stowaways or something. The only thing that allows China to do all these is…

So what do you want Apple to do? Leave the China market and allow a government owned phone company to take the market share? How is that scenario better for anyone in the US or China?

I mean being angry that the Chinese government isn't great at human rights is one thing, but to point that anger at Apple is a bit misguided, and what do you suggest that would actually make the problem better?

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#200

Post by paradite »

asdfologist wrote: post #181
travmatt wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't call China a dictatorship... it's an authoritarian state, but calling Xi Jinping a dictator isn't really accurate.

What can a dictator do that Xi Jinping can't?

> What can a dictator do that Xi Jinping can't?

Stay in power for as long as he wants, and then pass the leadership to his child.

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