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Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

nytimes.com

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Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#121

Post by the8472 »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #95
izacus wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet Apple already polices you for any kind of content you might deem offensive / objectionable or not "family friendly" enough on your iOS device.

Yes. But Apple is a private company, that is there prerogative.

The private company argument has limits. Common carrier status for one. At least in the EU there also are exemptions for repairing and interoperability.

In my opinion repairability should extend to the ability for the owner of a device to side-load any software.

If apple wants to police their own app-store, fine. But they shouldn't be allowed to exclude installation through other means. If they had not complete control over the ecosystem then they would not be in the situation where they can and have to play deputy sheriff for the government.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#122

Post by kiba »

mauvehaus wrote: post #102

This from the company that removed the headphone jack from their phones while crowing about the "courage" involved in making the decision. I'm not going to pretend to believe that Tim Cook's letter (cited elsewhere) was much more than a PR move in a country they were unlikely to face any substantial consequences for (at least publicly) standing up to the government, or that I really believe that corporations have a r…

Apple follows the law while sending lawyers to do the work necessary to block censorship.

How do the law work in China? Is it even possible to block censorship?

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#123

Post by jahaja »

sho wrote: post #87
maxxxxx wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't necessarily blame corporations for this. My point is that we shouldn't look at corporations as agents for freedom. A lot of people seem to be doing this. In the end they will fall in line with whoever is running the country. As long as there is money to be made.

> My point is that we shouldn't look at corporations as agents for freedom It's mind-boggling that this even needs to be stated. Of course we should not. Anyone who does needs to step back and seriously re-examine how they look at the world, because this is an intensely false presupposition.

It's not that strange. The free market/market economy is used more or less as a synonym, albeit incorrectly imo, for freedom. Seemingly to try to make it true by repetition.

Look at any kind of right-wing politician whose random short bio contains "Loves freedom!" or similar. In practice it translates to "loves the market economy and property rights etc", while the same person seldom sympathize with ideas of a living wage, lowering working hours etc.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#124

Post by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC »

jliptzin wrote: post #120
maxxxxx wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't necessarily blame corporations for this. My point is that we shouldn't look at corporations as agents for freedom. A lot of people seem to be doing this. In the end they will fall in line with whoever is running the country. As long as there is money to be made.

Who is doing that? Corporations exist only to generate profit for their shareholders and they aren't shy about admitting that

Anyone who takes part in proprietary products with network effects does that?

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#125

Post by humanrebar »

FRex wrote: post #108
daKoder wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a business after all and China is a huge market for Apple. No one ever said that capitalism was very aligned with human rights. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

> No one ever said that capitalism was very aligned with human rights. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Typical answer I heard in this case is that you can create your own Apple and provide better and cheaper service and respects human rights. (No, in the eyes of mindless capitalists[1] barrier to entry doesn't exist.) [1] By that I mean people who say every single problem on Earth will be forced if only all regulations and governments are…

The phone market isn't exactly open. There is more or less a government chartered oligopoly in mobile data industry. Those companies were leveraged to create the initial consumer lock in that Apple enjoys now. Interoperability without Apple's consent is also possible but it's a government chartered monopoly on technology (copyrights, patents, bans on circumvention) that prevents that.

All that being said, you're talking to straw men here. Most died in the wool free market types still see a role for the government in preventing market abuse, including fraud, monopolies, insider trading, etc.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#126

Post by Kurtz79 »

pipio21 wrote: post #65

Just common sense, given that the China gobertment has made usage of VPNs illegal. What do you expect? People in China could continue using app store accounts created in other countries as usual. And most educated people continue using VPNs too. Normal people are becoming experts in encription, security... It worries me more that countries like the UK and the US want to follow China, in that order.

"And most educated people continue using VPNs too. Normal people are becoming experts in encription, security..."

As I'm not familiar with China or its (native) people, I have no grounds to refute the statement above, but is it really true ?

My experience is that a large number of people in the West ("educated" or not) are barely interested even in the information and news that are readily available to them, and mostly concern themselves with sports, gossip and entertainment.

I find hard to believe that most people in China are using VPNs and taking risks on a daily basis to access "uncensored" information, I'm sure that there are quite a few that do, but I'd be surprised if it's not a relatively small minority.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#127

Post by oelmekki »

microcolonel wrote: post #27
maxxxxx wrote: post #20

That's why corporations will never help against dictatorship. They may do it if it's convenient but in the end they will prioritize money over everything else and fall in line with dictatorships. Happened during the Nazi time, it's happening in China now.

> That's why corporations will never help against dictatorship. They may do it if it's convenient but in the end they will prioritize money over everything else and fall in line with dictatorships. Happened during the Nazi time, it's happening in China now. Well, if you want your government to be powerful enough to enforce laws against corporations, then corporations will not be powerful enough to defy your governmen…

Not sure why this is downvoted. We're in a era when the biggest companies have the same means than small to medium countries, this remark is perfectly valid.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#128

Post by humanrebar »

nine_k wrote: post #110
humanrebar wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I expect Apple to respect universal human rights regardless of the context. Freedom of speech is foundational. And this isn't a China-vs-the-West thing. The idea that people deserve and need to be able to communicate freely predates the current governments of both China and the U.S.

How exactly would they help respect it? Their choices are, as far as I can tell, to either remove certain apps from app store, or to face the app store blocked entirely. I wonder what servers their customers best. It's hard and unpleasant to conduct business in a place where laws are at odds with what you believe is right. But when it's lucrative enough, you may choose to shut up and comply.

> I wonder what servers their customers best.

It sounds like that point can be accurately rephrased as, "We're censoring you, but we did some soul searching and we think it's for your own good."

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#129

Post by kps »

eternalban wrote: post #77
pipio21 wrote: post #65

Just common sense, given that the China gobertment has made usage of VPNs illegal. What do you expect? People in China could continue using app store accounts created in other countries as usual. And most educated people continue using VPNs too. Normal people are becoming experts in encription, security... It worries me more that countries like the UK and the US want to follow China, in that order.

UK is the surveillance capital of this planet [1]. PM May expressed readiness to "tear up Human Rights"[2]. UK is the enabler of Chinese CP leadership, not a follower. [1]: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/19/extreme-survei... [2]: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/06/theresa-may...

The UK has been a leader in developing internet censorship for over 20 years; it's never been just one party or government.

When certain big network equipment companies (this was before Huawei cloned everything) responded to criticism for building the Great Firewall of China by saying they were only supplying off-the-shelf gear already in use in the West, they weren't lying.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#130

Post by slice_of_life »

sametmax wrote: post #56
microcolonel wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In many places where companies are incorporated, that is likely an illegal decision to make for your company. Unless you can argue that the loss of sales in that jurisdiction will be less than the loss in sales abroad (from loss of consumer trust), you probably can't do it. In addition, they likely have ongoing procurement contracts with some companies in China which they would need to continue honouring. In principl…

Legality and morality are different things. Your shareholders may have the right to ask you to fire loads of people, or be a patent troll, but the choice is still yours. But let's be fair, how many individuals, given the choice, would choose making a better world over money ? Probably not event most people in this thread. We are weak creatures.

> We are weak creatures.

Ha ha. You're hilarious.

On a serious note though, I don't disagree that indeed your statement above is true but because we are weak creatures, we must rely on systems. Making the world a better place is many a time correlated with some sort of validation by consumers in a market based system. I.e. solve problems/make life better or easier for someone, get rewarded by more and more patronage.

Granted, this is not always the case but majority of the time, this has been in my experience the most unbiased and reliable way to do good in the world. Simply by solving other people's problems for your and others' sustenance, you somehow also end up making the world a better place. They don't have to be mutually exclusive.

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