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Why I left Japan after 10 years

blog.uchujin.co.uk

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Re: Why I left Japan after 10 years

#271

Post by Rudism »

on_and_off wrote: post #165
atemerev wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's small cultural differences. In the UK, the most dreaded crime you can do is cutting in the queue — while in other countries, while still frowned upon, this is not a big deal. Here in Switzerland, if you dare to get your trash out to someone else's container and get caught in the act, you are royally screwed — while people in other countries can't get it, trash is still getting out by waste management services, w…

Can you expand the 'not the greatest country anecdote' ? I am moving to SF soon (from France) and while the US have great opportunities for techies, I find it the 'best country in the world' mantra laughable. (it applies to pretty much any country though .. which norm (in the mathematical sense) are you using exactly ? I don't think there is one and only one.

I'm from Canada, living in the US and married to a native for the last 13 years or so.

Before Trump got elected I would always get an angry glare and trigger defensive responses whenever I'd point out some aspect of the US that I felt could be improved or was lacking when compared to how things are in Canada.

After Trump it's a bit different. I think his election has been a bit of an eye opener for a lot of people that there really are deep-seated problems and maybe striving to be more like other countries that do things differently isn't such a bad idea.

Of course, that's just my experience living in a big city where my social circle is overwhelmingly liberal (which easily also applies to SF). I'm sure things are quite different in more rural/conservative areas of the country.

Re: Why I left Japan after 10 years

#272

Post by bojo »

mikekchar wrote: post #138
arnioxux wrote: post #23

The "JAPANESE ONLY" sign was probably meant for chinese tourists. The kanji below it, "謝绝中国人", translates roughly to "decline chinese people" which is understandable given their notorious behavior abroad: http://shanghaiist.com/2016/12/30/shanghaiist_2016_embarrass... https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/11/world/asia/bad-manners-ch... http://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2016/10/07/commentary/wo...

I'm trying to avoid commenting on this thread because I think it is impossible for me to write a nuanced enough response that will give people a closer understanding of what it's like to live here (I moved here 10 years ago, though I spent 2 years in the UK, so 8 years total). However, I can comment on the "Japanese only" signs. I've never actually seen one myself, but I know they exist in some places. An acquaintanc…

I agree with the other commenter, this really sums it up well.

Re: Why I left Japan after 10 years

#273

Post by GoodDreams »

Rudism wrote: post #271
on_and_off wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you expand the 'not the greatest country anecdote' ? I am moving to SF soon (from France) and while the US have great opportunities for techies, I find it the 'best country in the world' mantra laughable. (it applies to pretty much any country though .. which norm (in the mathematical sense) are you using exactly ? I don't think there is one and only one.

I'm from Canada, living in the US and married to a native for the last 13 years or so. Before Trump got elected I would always get an angry glare and trigger defensive responses whenever I'd point out some aspect of the US that I felt could be improved or was lacking when compared to how things are in Canada. After Trump it's a bit different. I think his election has been a bit of an eye opener for a lot of people th…

I've been living in the San Francisco area for 10 years. Since Trump has been nominated I'm not allowed to have opinions or feelings. As a straight white cis man my speech is considered violence regardless of content. I'm currently looking for a place to live where I have a choice to speak and still be friends with all sorts of people. Any suggestions?

Re: Why I left Japan after 10 years

#274

Post by coldtea »

brucephillips wrote: post #265
coldtea wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Every new person I meet would assume I'm a foreigner. Which would be a statistically sound assumption. In Japan, the cases of caucasians that were born and raised there are very rare (compared to just tourists or short term staying), so they naturally assume you are not that. It's just that the US has all kinds of people living there since centuries even (e.g. 3-4th generations of Chinese), so you can't make the as…

> Which would be a statistically sound assumption. This is a straw man. I haven't argued otherwise. You're making the same mistake that other of my respondents are making, which is to assume I'm claiming that the native Japanese are in some way doing something wrong by assuming I don't speak Japanese. > That's not what would make me feel like a foreigner... I'm sure you don't realize you're doing this, but I'm tellin…

>I'm sure you don't realize you're doing this, but I'm telling you how I and many other immigrants who have lived as ethnic minorities in a foreign country are led to feel like outsiders, and your response is to say that those feelings are invalid, and you wouldn't let it bother you, despite having (presumably) never experienced what we're talking about.

Well, I'm European but I have worked in an asian country for years as a very tiny ethnic minority there (not even 0.01%).

But in general, "you haven't experienced it" is no real argument, because just having experienced something doesn't mean the experience or the interpretation of the experience is justified. And that's something that someone who hasn't experienced the thing might still be able to point out.

I don't doubt that one can feel "like a foreigner" in Japan.

People can feel all sorts of things, including that, and Japanese society might especially encourage them to feel like foreigners.

What I'm saying is that if a caucasian feels like a foreigner just because Japanese because people assume he probably doesn't speak Japanese, then he feels like a foreigner for a superficial reason -- and not about how he's treated and how he's integrated (or not) into his Japanese social circles, but about how Japanese people he doesn't know think he's a tourist or short term visitor.

Re: Why I left Japan after 10 years

#275

Post by taneq »

brucephillips wrote: post #270
taneq wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if (as in this case) it discards the other side of the debate, which is the desire to protect individuals from harm predominantly perpetrated by a particular demographic.

That's just the racist side. You're quite simply defending racism. Racists are still morally culpable even if their prejudices are statistically true, because it harms individuals who don't happen to adhere to those stereotypes.

I'm asking how far we should go to 'not be racist' on principle, when doing so causes measurable material harm.

Is your answer genuinely "I would let myself and those I care about suffer an unlimited amount of harm in order to avoid the possibility of inflicting an unfair prejudice on any individual"? Because according to your stated position, anything less is "defending racism".

And I strongly suspect that, if it were put to the test, you really would not accept arbitrary harm in order to "not defend racism". And if so, then you're publicly declaring that you hold a 'virtuous' position, when in reality you do not. And that is the definition of 'virtue signalling'.

Re: Why I left Japan after 10 years

#276

Post by Arkaad »

The last photo of the post features a girl giving the finger towards the camera. The author of the blog should know that taking a picture of someone without their consent is considered as quite rude in Japan.

Re: Why I left Japan after 10 years

#277

Post by brucephillips »

taneq wrote: post #275
brucephillips wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just the racist side. You're quite simply defending racism. Racists are still morally culpable even if their prejudices are statistically true, because it harms individuals who don't happen to adhere to those stereotypes.

I'm asking how far we should go to 'not be racist' on principle, when doing so causes measurable material harm. Is your answer genuinely "I would let myself and those I care about suffer an unlimited amount of harm in order to avoid the possibility of inflicting an unfair prejudice on any individual"? Because according to your stated position, anything less is "defending racism". And I strongly suspect that, if it we…

Except you're defending racist signs that ostensibly protect people from rude behavior, not "unlimited amount of harm", so this is all a straw man.

Of course there's a practical limit to tolerance. This isn't it.

Re: Why I left Japan after 10 years

#278

Post by brucephillips »

coldtea wrote: post #274
brucephillips wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Which would be a statistically sound assumption. This is a straw man. I haven't argued otherwise. You're making the same mistake that other of my respondents are making, which is to assume I'm claiming that the native Japanese are in some way doing something wrong by assuming I don't speak Japanese. > That's not what would make me feel like a foreigner... I'm sure you don't realize you're doing this, but I'm tellin…

> I'm sure you don't realize you're doing this, but I'm telling you how I and many other immigrants who have lived as ethnic minorities in a foreign country are led to feel like outsiders, and your response is to say that those feelings are invalid, and you wouldn't let it bother you, despite having (presumably) never experienced what we're talking about. Well, I'm European but I have worked in an asian country for y…

> What I'm saying is that if a caucasian feels like a foreigner just because Japanese because people assume he probably doesn't speak Japanese, then he feels like a foreigner for a superficial reason

A shorter way to say this is "If a person feels like X because people assume he's X every day, then he feels like a X for a superficial reason", which is almost directly self-contradictory. If people treat you like X every day, that's likely going to make you feel like X.

Perhaps you somehow wouldn't feel X despite daily messages that you are X, but most people would.

Re: Why I left Japan after 10 years

#279

Post by Tharkun »

dintech wrote: post #211
Tharkun wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had the same reaction reading their cyclist rant. Even the video made no sense. It show a couple of cyclists committing minor trafic infractions, but apparently those are "criminally irresponsible" acts. It's their blog, so they're welcome to bitch and moan as much as they want. But this strikes me as one of those people who are frequently told to lighten up.

As someone who lives in the UK and has spent a lot of time in Japan, I can promise you that it's way more dangerous to be a pedestrian in the UK. Pedestrian crossings mean nothing to the zooming, lycra-clad morons who think the roads are their own private velodrome.

That's not my experience in the UK. In my experience there are very, very few cyclists in the UK. To the point that anything they do wrong is pretty much irrelevant.

Disclaimer: I've spent most of my life living in areas where bicycles outnumber cars, so my standards are likely different from yours.

Re: Why I left Japan after 10 years

#280

Post by coldtea »

brucephillips wrote: post #278
coldtea wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm sure you don't realize you're doing this, but I'm telling you how I and many other immigrants who have lived as ethnic minorities in a foreign country are led to feel like outsiders, and your response is to say that those feelings are invalid, and you wouldn't let it bother you, despite having (presumably) never experienced what we're talking about. Well, I'm European but I have worked in an asian country for y…

> What I'm saying is that if a caucasian feels like a foreigner just because Japanese because people assume he probably doesn't speak Japanese, then he feels like a foreigner for a superficial reason A shorter way to say this is "If a person feels like X because people assume he's X every day, then he feels like a X for a superficial reason", which is almost directly self-contradictory. If people treat you like X eve…

>A shorter way to say this is "If a person feels like X because people assume he's X every day, then he feels like a X for a superficial reason", which is almost directly self-contradictory. If people treat you like X every day, that's likely going to make you feel like X.

I think where we disagree is that I think that this is not an absolute, but depends on a) what people, and b) under what circumstances and for what reasons they assume you're X.

If it's only strangers that assume that, and because it's more or less statistically sound to assume it (that has nothing to do with you specifically) then

E.g. if people assume I'm a jerk for wearing some t-shirt message, but only because they don't know me and don't know I wear it ironically, then it wouldn't make me feel like perhaps I'm a jerk -- just that they don't know me and/or they don't get the joke. If on the other hand people I know imply that I'm a jerk, that would actually hurt me.

But maybe all this is over-analysing (well, not maybe, it is).

In a sense, someone living in Japan who is not Japanese, it is indeed a foreigner. Unlike the US or UK, etc, Japan is an ethnically cohesive society -- most of them are not just born there AND raised there, but also of Japanese ethnicity for millennia. So it makes sense not to consider a caucasian who lives there even 20 or 30 years as Japanese. But the key is probably whether they feel welcome.

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