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Why I left Japan after 10 years

blog.uchujin.co.uk

131–140 of 287 posts

Re: Why I left Japan after 10 years

#131
Having lived in Japan, there's this weird curve that people go through when they move.

Most people love Japan at first, and then, particularly if they're middle-aged and white, the frustration of being in your late thirties and living in a tiny house, not being able to progress in your career, and not having a social life begins to kick in.

At that point, little things which shouldn't bother you - like the word gaijin which although unpleasant to Western ears is purely a descriptive term and the ignorance about the rest of the world begin to bother you. You also come to understand enough Japanese to understand what people are really saying beneath the surface.

For what its worth, I found Japan incredibly safe, welcoming and unfailingly polite. I went to get my hair cut and by the end of it once the hairdresser had taken my number and offered to take me to Tsukiji fish auction!

I think it is possible to go through an extended period in Japan without being consumed by bitterness like the OP, though it is a pattern I see quite often.

Re: Why I left Japan after 10 years

#132
post #40

I heard the "if you don't like it, leave line" from people all the time in America. Even with the pettiest of political disagreements, people say it. So then I went to Japan and haven't received or heard of anyone receiving similar vitriol aside from the OP. A foreign coworker (same race and nationality as me) endlessly complains about racism, discrimination, and being stared at here. I've experienced none of it. I'm…

Been here 11 years myself and haven't experienced anything the author has stated either. My first year here was awkward (university exchange), but one can just write that off to culture shock. You can't help but think everyone is staring at you at first, and a lot of times they are - welcome to a very homogeneous Asian population foreigner, you are rare!

I feel like the people that come here and end up hating it are exactly as you say, people with an absurd amount of weird cultural entitlement. It's like they don't understand that they are living in a completely different country from their own with completely different standards and norms. I have luckily not met such bitter folk, although I've tended to just stick to living a standard life here and not going out of my way to join any foreigner circles, which are apparently where these oddball haters tend to cluster.

I remember when Google+ first came out and I flipped to the "people near you panel" on accident. Some lady, probably American, had posted a rant about how the hotel she was in asked her to leave the fitness area because she was covered in tattoos. She went on about self image, and how it's degrading to her being a unique individual, and on and on. I was like, holy shit, does this person even realize the stigma behind tattoos here? Does she understand that she is in a culture that is incredibly not individualistic and all about the group? I mean, how can one go and spend time in a foreign country with that level of ignorance?

Sure, we all make mistakes, but I'd like to think most of us humbly accept that we did a cultural snafu and then move on.

Re: Why I left Japan after 10 years

#133
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? That's because english is considered universal language and they don't want to presume that you know japanese well enough for a conversation? That doesn't happen to asians in the US, you know maybe because they don't know the asian language?

> That's because english is considered universal language and they don't want to presume that you know japanese well enough for a conversation? Yes, which is a source of white people being "forever foreigners" in Japan, which is exactly my point.

I don't understand, how does that make it "forever foreigners"? Have you tried telling them you understand japanese and continue conversation? How would the other person know if you arrived yesterday or living there for 20yrs? This is a pretty bad example imo.

Re: Why I left Japan after 10 years

#134
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cars kill far more people than bicycles, both absolute and per capita, so if that's your measure, then the road is no place for cars.

Bicycles are far more dangerous. Even more so that motorcycles, most people are smart enough to realize that it's the 20 lb bicycle that loses to 4000 lbs of steel. Danger is calculated in risk per mile, not per capita / absolute. I drive a 4Runner because it has lots of steel and is very safe so that when my kids get into an accident learning to drive they don't die.

>I drive a 4Runner because it has lots of steel and is very safe

I can't believe I'm seeing this kind of ignorance on HN...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aht7Sc_J4OU

Re: Why I left Japan after 10 years

#136
post #40

I heard the "if you don't like it, leave line" from people all the time in America. Even with the pettiest of political disagreements, people say it. So then I went to Japan and haven't received or heard of anyone receiving similar vitriol aside from the OP. A foreign coworker (same race and nationality as me) endlessly complains about racism, discrimination, and being stared at here. I've experienced none of it. I'm…

> It's just a matter of being on the other end of it now. Not quite. It's a different degree. When I was in Japan, for example, no Japanese person would start a conversation with me in Japanese. It was always English. That mostly doesn't happen to Asian residents in the US.

I guess I'll add an anecdata point to your anecdata point, I had multiple random Japanese persons initiate conversation with me in Japanese when I visited Japan for a couple of weeks.

I'm a white, blond man and went together with my white blond girlfriend.

Re: Why I left Japan after 10 years

#137
post #110
post #40

I heard the "if you don't like it, leave line" from people all the time in America. Even with the pettiest of political disagreements, people say it. So then I went to Japan and haven't received or heard of anyone receiving similar vitriol aside from the OP. A foreign coworker (same race and nationality as me) endlessly complains about racism, discrimination, and being stared at here. I've experienced none of it. I'm…

I've never understood what's wrong with voting with your feet. Reminds me of how the people most dissatisfied with their jobs stay the longest

Sometimes you can't.

More than anything else I wish I could just get on a plane and move to America but I can't because I'm not eligible for any visas. My company tried to relocate me and the immigration lawyer we hired basically said "can't happen, sorry". I did lots of research and I'm nowhere close to ticking enough boxes to do it. I'm currently trying to apply to University, with no idea how I'll afford it, to do a degree so I'll be more eligible for a visa and will tick more boxes in a few years.

It's why "just leave" or "just vote with your wallet" is terrible advice.

Re: Why I left Japan after 10 years

#138

The "JAPANESE ONLY" sign was probably meant for chinese tourists. The kanji below it, "謝绝中国人", translates roughly to "decline chinese people" which is understandable given their notorious behavior abroad: http://shanghaiist.com/2016/12/30/shanghaiist_2016_embarrass... https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/11/world/asia/bad-manners-ch... http://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2016/10/07/commentary/wo...

I'm trying to avoid commenting on this thread because I think it is impossible for me to write a nuanced enough response that will give people a closer understanding of what it's like to live here (I moved here 10 years ago, though I spent 2 years in the UK, so 8 years total).

However, I can comment on the "Japanese only" signs. I've never actually seen one myself, but I know they exist in some places. An acquaintance of mine is well connected with a particular sumo heya (a "heya" is essentially a group of sumo wrestlers who live and train together along with their trainers and staff). It is popular (and fun) to go and watch the wrestlers train in their heya, but one is sometimes confronted with the "Japanese Only" sign at the entrance.

My acquaintance is not Japanese (he isn't even a resident), but like I said, he is well acquainted with the heya. One time, he asked some visiting foreigners if they wanted to watch the training and they were delighted to accept. When they got to the entrance they saw the sign. "Is it really OK?", they asked.

"It's fine. I've made arrangements. As far as the heya is concerned, if you know how to make arrangements to visit the heya, then you are Japanese".

Living in Japan can be very difficult for people who are not culturally Japanese. There is a weird inside/outside culture where either your are inside with a bunch of strange rules that you have to follow (and know to follow, somehow) or you are outside (where you don't really need to know or follow any rules). What "Japanese Only" means is that they only want people who know what the rules are, know how to follow the rules, and most importantly, are willing to follow the rules to the letter even if they think the rules are stupid. If you can do that, then you are "Japanese enough".

Generally speaking, there are few cultures in the world with the same kind of byzantine rule following culture that Japan has. Many cultures are literally morally opposed to blindly following rules. People from those cultures often have great difficulty in certain circumstances in Japan. However, if you show that you are willing and able to surmount those hurdles, my experience has been that most people have no trouble accepting you as Japanese.

Re: Why I left Japan after 10 years

#139
post #54

Sounds like Japanese are happy with their culture and don't want it changed especially not by foreigners. It seems like a reasonable enough position, but I wonder if there a way to express this desire in a way that couldn't easily be criticized as being "xenopohbic"? Is there something inherently wrong with this attitude? (I personally wouldn't want to be a foreigner living there is what he describes is true, but no…

This is a very interesting question, and one that's being asked all over the world at the moment.

To use the example of Brexit - I sometimes feel like the 'Remain' side, in accusing 'Leave' of xenophobia & racism, painted themselves into a corner where any discussion of reducing migration was taboo.

I voted 'Remain' and am generally fine with current levels of immigration, but would I continue to be ok if these levels doubled, tripled, quadrupled? To be honest, I'm not sure.

In that sense, perhaps I'm not really much different from a 'Leave' voter, we just have different levels of sensitivity to opening our culture to foreigners.

(Or course, the referendum was about much more than immigration, but there's no doubting that it was a huge factor for many people.)

Re: Why I left Japan after 10 years

#140
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> except for obviously violations of core human values which I don't think we would find in Japan Yes, we would. The Japanese penal system has a presumption of guilt.

That's not core to me. The litigation system is highly cultural, can be a village assembly before the eldest, a full judiciary system as we have in the West, can be based on Roman law or jurisprudence. Presumption of guilt is just another way.

If you don't consider the presumption of innocence a core human value, what do you?
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