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Why I left Japan after 10 years

blog.uchujin.co.uk

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Re: Why I left Japan after 10 years

#211

Post by dintech »

Tharkun wrote: post #127
sho wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I get the feeling there is more that the author's personal situation that he isn't saying Yes, I definitely think so too. And the article about cycling in tokyo he links to [1] hints at this more. I've cycled very extensively in tokyo over the years i lived there and the experience he describes sounds, ironically, totally foreign to me. Tokyo's a wonderful and extremely safe place to cycle, which is of course why m…

I had the same reaction reading their cyclist rant. Even the video made no sense. It show a couple of cyclists committing minor trafic infractions, but apparently those are "criminally irresponsible" acts. It's their blog, so they're welcome to bitch and moan as much as they want. But this strikes me as one of those people who are frequently told to lighten up.

As someone who lives in the UK and has spent a lot of time in Japan, I can promise you that it's way more dangerous to be a pedestrian in the UK. Pedestrian crossings mean nothing to the zooming, lycra-clad morons who think the roads are their own private velodrome.

Re: Why I left Japan after 10 years

#212

Post by muninn_ »

Heh, meanwhile in the West if we do the equivalent were just racists and bigots. Move a bunch of refugees into a small town and see women covered up in a burqa and get upset about it? You're a racist now. Wear tattoos in Asia and get kicked out of a gym? "Oh that's just Asian country X, you have to respect their culture". I can't roll my eyes enough.

The people in that Asian country should just accept her for who she is and deal with it. Especially since it's obvious she's a foreigner, they could have just chilled out.

Re: Why I left Japan after 10 years

#213

Post by yorwba »

markburns wrote: post #203
yorwba wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"謝绝中国人" doesn't match what I know about Japanese grammar, but does match Chinese grammar. So I would expect the bilingual sign to be directed towards all foreigners. Once in English ("Japanese only") for everyone who speaks it, and once in Chinese to directly address Chinese tourists (who might not speak English).

FYI I think the 绝 is only Simplified Chinese, 絕 in Traditional. I think 絶 is the Japanese equivalent.

Right, I only copied the text from my parent comment, without checking that it actually matches the original. My point about the grammar stands, though. I think they simply wrote Chinese text using Japanese kanji.

Simplified Chinese would be "(谢绝)(中国人)" = "(politely refuse)(Chinese person)" = "(verb)(object)", which is correct Chinese grammar.

However, 謝絶 seems to be a noun/suru verb in Japanese (http://jisho.org/search/謝絶), so I think the equivalent phrase would be "(中国人)(を)(謝絶)(します)" = "(Chinese person)(object of)(polite refusal)(make)" = "(object)(particle marking object)(noun/suru verb)(inflected form of suru)".

Disclaimer: I am not a native speaker of either language and didn't have much in the way of grammar lessons, so this might all be horribly wrong. I'm definitely open to corrections ;)

Re: Why I left Japan after 10 years

#214

Post by fenomas »

Kurtz79 wrote: post #70
EliRivers wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems that he is serious. You knew that already. Perhaps you disagree? Perhaps you can present your own findings and contribute to the discussion? Based on my own fairly limited experience in Japan, English as learned in school doesn't seem to translate (a ha ha) into effective English conversation. It seems that an academic rigor is taught (no bad thing, of course) but practical conversation skills are neglected.

I find the attitude of people from English-speaking countries that the rest of the world should speak fluent English quite puzzling. It is understandable if you are a professional dealing with foreign companies, or if you are involved in the tourism business; that leaves out the vast majority of the population, which is not willing to invest hundreds of hours learning a skill that does not provide any significant ben…

> my guess that English is taught some 2-3 hours per week

Neat, but your guess is wildly wrong, and you should therefore discard your conclusions. Japanese mid/high-schoolers take about as many hours of English as they do math, science, or Japanese, and most study further hours at cram schools.

The fact that very few Japanese people can speak conversation English despite an extremely rigorous education is what people are talking about here - not whether Japanese people "should" (in a normative sense) speak English, as you're trying to imply.

Re: Why I left Japan after 10 years

#216

Post by jalcazar »

cannonpr wrote: post #52

I haven't spent ten years in Japan, but I have spent some time there. Some of his complaints do ring true especially around civil rights, however his experience of it feels very weird. I was praised for my language skills, accepted and invited to family outings, never had issues with restaurants that had no foreigner signs (after I spoke Japanese even badly it was all fine so long as acted within their cultures manne…

During my first year in Japan my experience was closer to what you describe, as the years passed it became more like his.

Re: Why I left Japan after 10 years

#217

Post by coldtea »

brucephillips wrote: post #190
coldtea wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Exactly that. If you're white in Japan, people will speak to you in English, which indicates they see you as a foreigner...forever. "forever foreigner". No, it just means that their statistical experience tells them that a random caucasian they meet most likely doesn't speak Japanese and is in their county short term. Which is true statistically speaking. What you say would be the case if they considered you a fore…

Every new person I meet would assume I'm a foreigner. That's what gives rise to the feeling of being "forever a foreigner". You never escape it. It's very simple.

>Every new person I meet would assume I'm a foreigner.

Which would be a statistically sound assumption.

In Japan, the cases of caucasians that were born and raised there are very rare (compared to just tourists or short term staying), so they naturally assume you are not that.

It's just that the US has all kinds of people living there since centuries even (e.g. 3-4th generations of Chinese), so you can't make the assumption that a Chinese in the US is a foreigner. Plus, the US doesn't have any ethnical cohesion anyway, so even a newly arrived asian, french, russian, or latin american etc, fits right in with the general population.

Given that, the real "forever a foreigner" problem to me would have to do with the acceptance (or lack thereof) of those that know you (e.g. how colleagues, neighbors, etc see you), not how random strangers see you. That's not what would make me feel like a foreigner...

Re: Why I left Japan after 10 years

#218

Post by patio11 »

kintle wrote: post #206
patio11 wrote: post #154

I have had approximately 10 involuntary interactions with the Japanese cops over the years. Here's my typical advice for foreign residents: you can pick your battles but you can't pick your police counterparties. The overwhelming likelihood if you are arbitrarily stopped by a police officer is that you were stopped for a reason which is outside the parameters of the law. Being vindicated by the law is something which…

Within a month or so of purchasing a used bicycle in Tokyo, I had been stopped more than 5 times by police. I guess the sight of a foreign guy on the cheapest bike I could find screams police magnet. It was cute at first and I was super polite and it would end quickly, but after a couple that resulted in patdowns, searches, and 20+ minutes answering questions about my presence in the country, I now make an effort to…

I had been wondering whether it was just Tokyo being more cosmopolitan but I'm now wondering if the reason for less adversarial encounters is simply that I haven't purchased a bike since leaving Ogaki.

(If this sounds dumbfounding to folks with less context: bicycle theft is near the top of police priorities and they have the impression that foreigners are the primary cause of it. "Suspicion of stealing my own bicycle" has historically been the most common thing which attracted me adversarial attention.)

Re: Why I left Japan after 10 years

#219

Post by bojo »

muninn_ wrote: post #212

Heh, meanwhile in the West if we do the equivalent were just racists and bigots. Move a bunch of refugees into a small town and see women covered up in a burqa and get upset about it? You're a racist now. Wear tattoos in Asia and get kicked out of a gym? "Oh that's just Asian country X, you have to respect their culture". I can't roll my eyes enough. The people in that Asian country should just accept her for who she…

Japan has a country wide stigma against people who wear tattoos due to it being a primary feature of Yakuza (Japanese Mafia), typically due to a history of them bringing their bad reputation into respectable establishments. Public bath houses and hot springs actively ask people with tattoos to leave because of this. While the younger generation have been getting themselves tattooed more these days, it's still pretty much frowned upon by society as a whole and isn't tolerated, period.

> The people in that Asian country should just accept her for who she is and deal with it.

This is exactly the mentality being discussed in this thread that is so abhorrent. You don't see Japanese people strolling into an American house and telling everyone they should take their shoes off before entering. Why should their society turn a blind eye to foreigners and accept something that is non-trivially a massive taboo in their own country?

Re: Why I left Japan after 10 years

#220

Post by ttflee »

yorwba wrote: post #213
markburns wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FYI I think the 绝 is only Simplified Chinese, 絕 in Traditional. I think 絶 is the Japanese equivalent.

Right, I only copied the text from my parent comment, without checking that it actually matches the original. My point about the grammar stands, though. I think they simply wrote Chinese text using Japanese kanji. Simplified Chinese would be "(谢绝)(中国人)" = "(politely refuse)(Chinese person)" = "(verb)(object)", which is correct Chinese grammar. However, 謝絶 seems to be a noun/suru verb in Japanese ( http://jisho.org/se…

It's quite natural for a native Chinese speaker to recognize all these variants.
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