Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment • Hacker News Board

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#761

Post by swift » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 7:00 PM UTC

BrandoElFollito wrote: post #616

adamsea wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intellectual consistency would require acknowledging the systematic repression of women in western history (not being able to vote, etc), and thus, the effects of what is still a patriarchial culture as often as not. In other words, your argument attempts to ignore simple historical facts which you can verify easily on Wikipedia.

I was always wondering why it is not appropriate to watch the skirt of a woman when I find it nice. Do not get me wrong, I come from a family of feminists, happily married with kids. But I am also pragmatic : when I wear a nice costume, it is too show off. When going outside, I know I will be surrounded by people who will watch me. If I wear a flamboyant shirt, I cannot be upset that people are watching me. I find th…

Perhaps their intention is to look attractive to someone they know, and you’re not part of the intended audience. That doesn’t mean you can’t look, but watching “intensely” is likely to make some people very uncomfortable and you should be respectful enough to not do it if you’re not sure it’s welcome.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#762

Post by stcredzero » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 7:00 PM UTC

abalone wrote: post #488

stcredzero wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh. Who would've thought that allowing wealthy frat bro types to run amok, wield power over others, and construct cults of personality would engender a culture of sexism and abuse?* Power is a dangerous thing. This is why we must also be careful of the power in evidence-free accusations and abrogation of "innocent until guilty." Not saying that is necessarily happening here. However, such urging to "listen and belie…

> we must also be careful of the power in evidence-free accusations and abrogation of "innocent until guilty." Not saying that is necessarily happening here. But you are strongly implying it. In a case where many of the men admitted their guilt, nonetheless. Your comment is just "men's rights" activist talking points.

But you are strongly implying it.

Heck no! That was the whole point of my saying, "Not saying that is necessarily happening here." Maybe I should've left out the necessarily.

Your comment is just "men's rights" activist talking points.

My point is a valid general observation about the power dynamics. One has to worry when valid general observations go unanswered by association with what some group says.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#763

Post by lawnchair_larry » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 7:02 PM UTC

robteix wrote: post #578

curun1r wrote: post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone keeps mistaking my meaning. I'm not trying to excuse the behavior or say that it's okay. I've repeatedly condemned it. But we need to decide what we want as a result of bringing this kind of behavior out into the open. Do we want to punish and ostracize the guilty or do we want to minimize the occurrence of this behavior going forward? If it's the former, then by all means get out your pitchforks and we can…

> Everyone keeps mistaking my meaning. This should tell you to stop and think about what you’re really saying.

No it shouldn't. What he is saying is just fine if people would take the time to actually read it.

It's not even that people are disagreeing, it's that they see a trigger word and stop reading, then launch into a straw man attack. I see that frequently in these "social justice" threads.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#764

Post by stcredzero » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 7:03 PM UTC

abalone wrote: post #718

photik wrote: post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fairly dismissive. He was asserting an unbiased approach at accusation. How is that a "men's rights" activist talking point? Are you suggesting that bias should exists against Y chromosomes?

> Are you suggesting that bias should exists against Y chromosomes? No. The men admitted guilt in this case and the women did supply evidence. This makes his assertion a politically motivated non sequitur.

This makes his assertion a politically motivated non sequitur.

Only if you incorrectly assume a particular intention on my part. However, if you take what I said at face value, it's simply a valid observation. I think it's one of the most important and fundamental observations to be made: that of the power dynamic. Feminism has much to say about such power dynamics. I think your bias is clearly showing.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#765

Post by neilparikh » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 7:04 PM UTC

honestoHeminway wrote: post #432

Clearly the valley has no problem with social isolated tech-types rising to power- and not advancing socially. Sorry, this is not just a moral problem- its the problem of a socially self isolating caste coming by rise to power back into human contact and then abusing it.

The people accused of harassment in this article are VCs, not "social isolated tech-types", so I don't think your statement is relevant at all.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#766

Post by stcredzero » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 7:11 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #281

stcredzero wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know many people like that, and no, they don't derive an enjoyable power trip out of being rejected at all. Theybdon't know they can get away with it. They don't know that they are doing it. These people are rarely evil and predatory. They usually genuinely believe that the behavior they are exhibiting is desirable. Basically, power corrupts. Being a boss, an investor, or an employer comes with power. Just having t…

> To me, this is the sort of "fainting couch" feminism that regards women as only potential victims who can't stand up for themselves and who must be protected by others. It's not fainting couch feminism, it's pragmatic feminism. These interactions happen in a context where peoples' livelihoods, their hopes and dreams, are on the line. Are you going to expect them to jeopardize that by overtly calling someone out? Th…

It's not fainting couch feminism, it's pragmatic feminism. These interactions happen in a context where peoples' livelihoods, their hopes and dreams, are on the line. Are you going to expect them to jeopardize that by overtly calling someone out?

I am a bit amazed that simply expressing your preferences when overtly asked is to be thought of as "calling someone out." If a coworker was to always pretend to agree with you on all matters of taste, I'd think of that person as spineless. Yet, most matters of taste are far less important than preferences of companionship.

At worst, it can result in negative repercussions

Nowadays, the phrase, "I don't feel comfortable with..." has negative repercussions in the same league.

If you consider yourself a decent person, why would you put someone else between a rock and a hard place like that? There are literally billions of women on the planet, and 99.99% don't work with you/for you.

If you read the thread, you will discover that no one was working for anyone, and this was for a volunteer organization outside of work.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#767

Post by lawnchair_larry » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 7:13 PM UTC

s73ver wrote: post #722

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment is totally inappropriate, not to mention ridiculous, and essentially amounts to a silly personal attack. No rational reading of anything he wrote could possibly suggest that he does or condones that. In fact you'd have to entirely ignore the sentence where he specifically says the opposite. Comments like this make it very difficult to have important discussions about these topics.

At the same time, your “boys will be boys” attitude makes it hard to take you seriously as well. How do we actually get this behavior to stop when there are so many out there saying we shouldn’t call it out or there shouldn’t be consequences for it because they are “ignorant” of what they’re doing? On top of that, I don’t buy that ignorance argument for a second; they know exactly what they are doing.

If you got "boys will be boys" out of what I said, you obviously didn't read very far. Feel free to read the whole post and make half an effort to see what I was saying. I also didn't say there shouldn't be consequences.

Not that it matters much, you've already wrongly assumed how these people work. You're free to do that, but if you don't understand what motivates someone's behavior, your efforts to improve your own situation or that of your allies is doomed to be counterproductive.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#768

Post by Mz » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 7:15 PM UTC

ewjordan wrote: post #754

Mz wrote: post #727

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Throwing money" at cultural problems basically never, ever works.

Except in the cases where it does work astoundingly well to solve issues that would have been labeled cultural before they were improved, like raising literacy rates across all races (achieved by massively increasing investment in education). See https://ourworldindata.org/literacy/#historical-perspective for some idea how well that worked. A similar situation is AIDS prevention via safe sex education. If a cultural…

This is a very sincere question: Where in your link does it show that literacy rose due to throwing money at the problem?

I am failing to find that assertion on the page you linke and that isn't my understanding at all of growing global trends in literacy, which are rooted in much more complex trends away from subsistence cultures and agriculturally based incomes. Furthermore, reading is a skill that is vastly different from the problem where talented educated women with ambitions cannot get their foot in the door because most men see them exclusively as sex objects. This is not solved at all by teaching women to code. Plenty of women code. They still face horrible problems due to sexism.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#769

Post by stcredzero » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 7:16 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #440

> a volunteer organization who went directly from "I don't think I can see a movie tonight" to "This situation is making me uncomfortable" with nothing in between. She tried to tell you gently in the way girls are taught to reject men while still being nice to them. If you reject dude other way, some tend to t get insulted anyway. You did not get it, so she informed you flat out about how she really think about the s…

You did not get it, so she informed you flat out about how she really think about the situation. You got angry :).

You weren't there, so you're clearly projecting. I didn't get angry. I got very anxious. I didn't say a word. My heart rate went up. I started picturing how my character was going to be impugned. Never did I say an angry word to her. As a matter of fact, we clarified the whole situation via email and we were later hanging out with friends at a convention party.

Now think how it would come across if you projected "you got mad" in a similar situation to a woman. It would strike me as somewhat jerky and transgressive.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#770

Post by stcredzero » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 7:21 PM UTC

michaelchisari wrote: post #310

stcredzero wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know many people like that, and no, they don't derive an enjoyable power trip out of being rejected at all. Theybdon't know they can get away with it. They don't know that they are doing it. These people are rarely evil and predatory. They usually genuinely believe that the behavior they are exhibiting is desirable. Basically, power corrupts. Being a boss, an investor, or an employer comes with power. Just having t…

To say the overt "no" -- to directly say what you want and mean -- is to claim agency as an adult. We absolutely should encourage this, but let's not ignore that we need to build a culture that doesn't ostracize and attack people when they do this. So far, we have HR departments that have an incentive to ignore, minimize or deflect these problems. We have a culture of employment that says that this is all part of dea…

We absolutely should encourage this, but let's not ignore that we need to build a culture that doesn't ostracize and attack people when they do this.

If a particular organizational culture isn't full of people who would be the level of jerk to attack someone for saying "no thanks" then how is it at all positive to teach half the people there to behave as if they will probably do that? That sounds to me like you're just creating fear where there should be none.