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Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

nytimes.com

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Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#751

Post by zenkat »

tootie wrote: post #649
dkarl wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think cringe is the wrong word. We cringe when we watch The Office and see people make social mistakes without meaning to. These are not unwitting social mistakes. This is people being assholes because they know they can get away with it. Furthermore, not having met any of these people but speculating based on my experience, I would guess that their motivations go beyond just looking for sex and knowing that one ti…

It's cringey if the perpetrator is a hapless nerd. It's harassment when they hold power over you.

And it's creepy harassment when a nerd holds power over you.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#752

Post by zenkat »

tootie wrote: post #649
dkarl wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think cringe is the wrong word. We cringe when we watch The Office and see people make social mistakes without meaning to. These are not unwitting social mistakes. This is people being assholes because they know they can get away with it. Furthermore, not having met any of these people but speculating based on my experience, I would guess that their motivations go beyond just looking for sex and knowing that one ti…

It's cringey if the perpetrator is a hapless nerd. It's harassment when they hold power over you.

And it's creepy harassment when a nerd holds power over you.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#753

Post by xor1 »

DanBC wrote: post #749
xor1 wrote: post #741

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Yes, I've met many people with borderline personality disorder. How many of them do you know extremely well? As in you've spent time alone with them for hours or even days on end? Are you a mental health professional who has treated them as patients? You don't really know someone with borderline until you do either of these, IMO, no matter how much research or campaigning you do. >False accusations are not more comm…

I have lived with people with BPD. I work with people with BPD. I've spent time alone with people with BPD. You appear to have gone through a messy divorce, but that doesn't give you any information about a large (one to two percent) part of the population.

It wasn't a divorce.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#754

Post by ewjordan »

Mz wrote: post #727
ewjordan wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One obvious step is that we need to do what we do in every other subject: force all children to learn enough tech to figure out whether they are good at it or not by making it a required class. When schools do that, they find that tons of girls excel at programming, but probably never would have tried it if it hadn't been mandatory. Dealing with harassment in the industry is also key, but even if that was eliminated…

"Throwing money" at cultural problems basically never, ever works.

Except in the cases where it does work astoundingly well to solve issues that would have been labeled cultural before they were improved, like raising literacy rates across all races (achieved by massively increasing investment in education). See https://ourworldindata.org/literacy/#historical-perspective for some idea how well that worked. A similar situation is AIDS prevention via safe sex education.

If a cultural problem has lack of exposure and education at its root, then it is very easy to throw money at that part of the problem and just fix it. Right now girls and underrepresented minorities are woefully underexposed to coding, and via education we can right that wrong directly even if we can't figure out how to fix the underlying cultural issues (which definitely exist, and have made white and Asian boys much more likely to have early exposure to CS).

I'll note that students tend to rate CS as their favorite academic subject (it's slightly below art and theater) when they are forced to take it, so "force" in this context is mostly just about getting them to take the first step. They love it once they start, so whether or not it will solve the gender imbalance problem, it's such a critical skill for the future economy that it seems irresponsible not to spend money on it and prepare people to participate in that economy, doubly so when students enjoy it so much.

That's not to say at all that the cultural components should be ignored, they're just so much deeper and more difficult to fix than this particular side effect, which is amenable to solution-by-education (which necessarily means throwing money around, since training teachers takes money).

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#755

Post by bduddhebd »

lebanon_tn wrote: post #628

> Lindsay Meyer, an entrepreneur in San Francisco, said Mr. Caldbeck put $25,000 of his own money into her fitness start-up in 2015. That gave Mr. Caldbeck reason to constantly text her; in those messages, reviewed by The Times, he asked if she was attracted to him and why she would rather be with her boyfriend than him. At times, he groped and kissed her, she said. > “I felt like I had to tolerate it because this is…

In this particular case, Caldbeck was exclusively (and clumsily) harassing Asian women.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#756

Post by [deleted] »

lebanon_tn wrote: post #628

> Lindsay Meyer, an entrepreneur in San Francisco, said Mr. Caldbeck put $25,000 of his own money into her fitness start-up in 2015. That gave Mr. Caldbeck reason to constantly text her; in those messages, reviewed by The Times, he asked if she was attracted to him and why she would rather be with her boyfriend than him. At times, he groped and kissed her, she said. > “I felt like I had to tolerate it because this is…

[deleted]

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#757

Post by freeflight »

XorNot wrote: post #723
freeflight wrote: post #693

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, there's a lot there because it simply ain't as simple as: "Do you sexually harass?" or "Do you have consent?" Such statements underestimate the untold complexities pretty much all social interaction are based on. That's why solutions to these problems are not as simple as some people like to pretend. Nobody really likes talking to each other bluntly, everything always has to be implied or "said trough the…

And yet I'll bet you would never feel comfortable implementing your proposed direct approach in a workplace environment. Or most environments. Because it would make people uncomfortable. So maybe analyze that feeling. Because the reason you don't have a relationship is not because you can't casually sexually harass women.

> Because it would make people uncomfortable.

Different people consider different things "uncomfortable" during different times. It's an emotion, that's why there are no objective clear cut standards for "what to say without making anybody uncomfortable", it's dynamic just like many societal norms are.

The reason I don't practice the direct approach myself is that, as I've already mentioned, I'm just not interested in casual sex and I'm rather introverted. The irony being: Guys who actually practice it, are more likely to end up in relationships.

Using the direct approach for getting into a relationship, which I have tried, quite often just ends up being seen as the epitome of creepiness and results in ridicule and shaming.

> So maybe analyze that feeling.

I "analyze feelings" pretty much constantly, even over needless memories way in the past. The issue being that you can't look into other peoples heads to analyze their "feelings", as to not to offend them with something you might say or do.

> Because the reason you don't have a relationship is not because you can't casually sexually harass women.

That's never what I argued for and you putting my statements so much out of context, to make me look like something I ain't, just reenforces my original point.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#758

Post by cbhl »

qb45 wrote: post #677
cbhl wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a resource: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Derailment

You surely could find a definition which isn't intermixed with propaganda.

I don't actually know of any good external resources for defining "derail" in this context. I learned about the concept through work, and didn't want to just blatantly copy-and-paste that document into HN.

I did about five minutes of Google searching. Pointers would be appreciated.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#759

Post by xor1 »

DanBC wrote: post #744
xor1 wrote: post #742

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People aren't really interested in discussing the issue or taking it seriously because it exposes a vulnerability in their platform, and they can't handle that. All of my comments have been flagged even after the thread was detached, and only one person followed through in a response chain. Shrug.

You're mistaken. Your comments border on bigotry. People don't want to engage with someone who has a closed mind. Pretty much everything you've said about borderline PD is fucking nonsense. There's no point responding to someone who so clearly demonstrates they don't know what they're talking about. None of the stuff you've mentioned has any link to borderline personality disorder. If you're going to use mental healt…

>People don't want to engage with someone who has a closed mind.

Except I don't have a closed mind, and I always follow through on response chains in discussions. I am more than willing to allow you to convince me.

>Pretty much everything you've said about borderline PD is fucking nonsense.

Not in my experience.

>In general when you find yourself saying stuff like "the Jews did it" or "Asians can't drive" or "black people can't swim" or "borderlines ..." You should probably not bother.

Ok, this is an EXTREME strawman. Comparing it to racism? Really?

>For anyone who wants to learn more about what borderline personality disorder is I recommend "Meeting the Challenge, Making a Difference".

I just took a quick look. This isn't a resource about BPD, it's about all personality disorders, and scanning through the book for references about Borderline mainly brings up discussion about treatment, and not the actual harm that borderlines inflict on other people. Point me to a specific page or section if you'd like, maybe I missed something.

You seem like a borderline apologist to me. I don't understand why people like you exist, to be honest. You know what I consider an apt comparison? Borderlines and pedophiles. Neither of them can help themselves, they both need treatment, yet they still cause devastation as they act out on their conditions, and they don't deserve a pass from society or the legal system.

>People with BPD experience significant stigma. Not just from the general population but from health professionals, including mental health professionals too.

Would you be so kind as to explain to me why you think this is the case? I have my own thoughts in regards to this, of course. I just want to hear yours, and possibly be convinced that I'm being unfair.

Re: Silicon Valley Women, in Cultural Shift, Frankly Describe Sexual Harassment

#760

Post by ewjordan »

solnyshok wrote: post #641
ewjordan wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One obvious step is that we need to do what we do in every other subject: force all children to learn enough tech to figure out whether they are good at it or not by making it a required class. When schools do that, they find that tons of girls excel at programming, but probably never would have tried it if it hadn't been mandatory. Dealing with harassment in the industry is also key, but even if that was eliminated…

"forcing all children to..." is never an answer

Forcing all children to go to school has been an answer for a few generations now, and even with the crappy imperfect education system that we have, it's paid off immensely. I'm merely suggesting that tech is now important enough to warrant inclusion in that curriculum as a way of making it slightly more relevant and less crappy.
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