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Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

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Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#151

Post by pm90 »

throwaway399 wrote: post #78
analog31 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oddly enough, I'm the first to admit that I've achieved my level of income by luck, and without hard work. I was lucky to have two educated parents, their wealth to fall back on, and an affluent, healthy environment to grow up in. My parents paid for my undergraduate education, and the government paid for my graduate degree. I "work" in a nice office, by playing with equations and gadgets, and talking to people. Mean…

I guess my history is almost opposite while achieving similar results. However, I get bunched in the same group and expected to feel privileged and guilty. I grew up in another country and went to end of junior + high school in a US school in the inner city where nobody studied in my class except for me. 65% of the class never graduated. My parents, although very educated in our home country never paid for school and…

I'm very sorry to hear the trying circumstances in your youth... but I'm very glad that you did manage to break out of it and be successful. The solutions you suggest to changing culture will unfortunately definitely not work. If its one thing I've noticed, its that if you try to ban something it drives it underground and makes it even "cooler". I don't know what the solution is, but changing the culture like that just isn't valuable.

There is also this fact that a lot of people who grew up in better circumstances (including myself and most of my friends) just never get to meet, interact with and understand people who grew up in tough cultures like you did.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#152

Post by rrock »

humanrebar wrote: post #136
TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Prices for things are certainly not set on open markets. You say this, yet Americans pay twice as much for care that is of considerably lower quality than other civilized countries. Do you think it's a coincidence that in one of the most privatized for-profit healthcare industries in the civilized world, we pay more? Sure, other systems have issues and are not perfect, but that doesn't excuse America's substandard…

Again, it's private and for profit, but it's not market based. It's just a big ball of bureaucracy, unintended consequences, and corruption (at least in the sense that the system isn't following its intended purposes). If it were market based, there would be a trivially discoverable price for commodity operations and such. How much does it cost for a skin cancer screening in Topeka? It depends? Well, that's a routine…

"Golly, I may be having a heart attack. I think I should take a moment to shop around for a cardiologist, so I can get quality treatment for fair prices."

Don't expect market forces to come to the rescue. It doesn't work that way.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#153

Post by Larrikin »

kabouseng wrote: post #126
prostoalex wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if "a culture that emphasizes individuality far too strongly" is a 2000 phenomenon - US in general and West Coast specifically has been defined by rugged individualism historically. But I'd add decline in church attendance to the list of reasons - churches used to be a natural "third space" for people to meet, socialize and have shared experiences leading to some potential societal bonding. Nowadays nomi…

Don't forget you get a greater abundance of "meetups" type clubs and meetings than you did a couple of years ago, which can offset the reduction of "third spaces". Ok, meetups are in my experience still a niche / nerdy occurrence but it is getting more and more main stream.

Meetup.com seems to be filling the niche and becoming pretty mainstream. I've used it on two continents now. There are a lot of tech groups, which I assume was their initial market, but I've mostly used it for language exchange. My other friends have also been using it for general hobbies.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#154

Post by pm90 »

okr wrote: post #118
TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...do yourself a favor and visit some reputable cities in the sun belt. On an individual level this might make sense, but if everyone does this, it just amplifies existing problems. In the city you're leaving, inequality would just grow worse, there would be a brain drain, and family support structures would weaken. In the city you're going to, housing costs would go up, and pockets of area would be insulated from…

Because its like riding a dead horse. I think, there are reasons, why areas go bad, and those reasons will not go away, unless people leave the s* holes. I do not see any obligation to stay, when its bad. So i'd say, its reasonable to go abroad, to abandon home and make something of life, when you have a chance to do it. And later, if you still feel close to your home, you can return and create something that makes s…

Going back is considerably harder than you may think. Once you move to a new place, you create a life for yourself, you form social networks, relationships, habits etc. Leaving all that for the uncertainty of a place which you left because of whatever reason seems like a huge gamble and something I would personally find hard to do.

Of course, it depends on ones nature. I have friends who miss and pine for their home country and do end up going back. Others like myself enjoy our new lives and identities in the US and stay.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#155

Post by dankohn1 »

brightball wrote: post #121
jimnotgym wrote: post #100

For anyone who wants to investigate the connection between poverty and society further, I can highly recommend, Rutger Bregman's book 'Utopia for realists'. It is funny to see cases in history where well researched,cost effective and progressive social programs have been stopped due to plain prejudice from those in power. I keep hearing Ayn Rand mentioned these days. Reading those long tedious books can give you fodd…

Regarding Rand, I hear her referenced more by libertarian detractors than any actual libertarians.

Paul Ryan, the primary author of the House healthcare bill, gives out an Ayn Rand book to all of his interns [0].

Fountainhead and especially Atlas Shrugged are engaging works of science fiction. I recommend everyone read at least one. And then keep in mind this quote [1]:

“There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs."

[0] http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/07/7-ways-paul-rya... [1] http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/366635-there-are-two-novels-...

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#156

Post by pm90 »

prostoalex wrote: post #82
dlwdlw wrote: post #54

I'm not sure the proportion, but there do exist certain people who are self destructive yet also self entitled. It's the state of mind that drives a person to gamble everything they own. Either the universe agrees with then and they do become the greatest person they think they are, or more likely, they fail and wallow in rage. In a way, it's like a child throwing a tantrum, threatening all sorts of things, knowing t…

> Note that money in the end will always be spent on meaning regardless of rich or poor. . The poor don't save because they can't see what to do with it. The type of "easy come, easy go" behavior is way more prevalent among poor than rich. I remember reading an article (impossible to dig out with generic keywords I can come up with) describing a study in savings pattern where they distributed small amounts of extra c…

There are a couple of things that I would like to add to your excellent comment.

* the feeling of lack of control over finances is lead by the higher level of crimes in poorer neighborhoods. So, if you constantly live under the fear of being mugged, or your car or house risks being broken into... these are things that could drive any person crazy.

* unable to afford or live a healthy lifestyle (healthy foods, exercise etc.) the poor also suffer from worse health problems, which exacerbates their problems.

If you've ever been mugged or had your car broken into, you will understand the feeling of helpless rage and loss of control... I just can't imagine living in a neighborhood where such things are commonplace.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#157

Post by pm90 »

humanrebar wrote: post #122
tonyedgecombe wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lack of good government regulation is what created the mess you are in, the real world isn't like some Ayn Rand novel.

"Good" government regulation is what created the mess. Patents on prescriptions. When loopholes can be applied or not to offer generics. Licensing and certifications. What counts as "health insurance". What kinds of medical practices can be opened. What drugs can be offered across state or national boundaries. Who gets discounts on health insurance (employers) and who doesn't (employees). The list goes on.

This is simply not true. What you seem to be suggesting is that we leave the healthcare market completely open to market forces. This would be a disaster of epic proportions because, realistically, not everyone can afford their own healthcare costs.

This is why we have health insurance, and regulations exist to protect citizens against predatory practices. Some of these regulations are misguided, and others are a result of lobbying by special interests. Most of them are OK.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#159

Post by wwwater »

hal9000xp wrote: post #71

As a person who was extremely poor by western standards (in 2002, I earned 10 USD per month in Uzbekistan) and who lived among poor people for 22 years, I can say that poverty is a personal choice, period. Here is my answer on Quora with more details: https://www.quora.com/Are-poor-people-lazy/answer/Eldar-Gayn... I copy this answer here: I born in Uzbekistan in relatively poor family. At age of 18 (2002 year), I sta…

> is a personal choice

It is, in the sense, that your personality determines it. But you can't determine your personality. If you are born curious and independent, you'll probably find your way. You cannot chose your genes. This thing about immediate gratification is a lot about genes and environment. If you are born in an environment where only instant gratification is valued, and if you don't get the right genes, there is no chance, you can change your life by yourself.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#160

Post by RobertoG »

okr wrote: post #118
TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...do yourself a favor and visit some reputable cities in the sun belt. On an individual level this might make sense, but if everyone does this, it just amplifies existing problems. In the city you're leaving, inequality would just grow worse, there would be a brain drain, and family support structures would weaken. In the city you're going to, housing costs would go up, and pockets of area would be insulated from…

Because its like riding a dead horse. I think, there are reasons, why areas go bad, and those reasons will not go away, unless people leave the s* holes. I do not see any obligation to stay, when its bad. So i'd say, its reasonable to go abroad, to abandon home and make something of life, when you have a chance to do it. And later, if you still feel close to your home, you can return and create something that makes s…

Of course that you personally can't change the situation and you should take care of yourself first. Your are powerless to change a full community. The question is, should we do something collectively?

In a way, I think, this is precisely what the discussion in this thread is about.

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