Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society • Hacker News Board

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#81

Post by prostoalex » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 9:45 AM UTC

petra wrote: post #43

jimmies wrote: post #2

Regarding blaming each other for their misfortune, I have an anecdotal experience I want to share. I don't know if that's just me or this phenomenal happens to everyone else as well: That's the "fuck you/who cares/deal with it" attitude. The "fuck you" attitude can be summarized as people won't go the extra mile to help other people. It is the non-sympathy, non-action I get from everyday people (including the police)…

Well, research is showing a huge decline(40%) in empathy between 2000-2010: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/born-love/201005/shocke... The article mentions few of the possible core reasons: a large decline in face to face time which is being replaced by the likes of facebook, a culture that emphasizes individuality far too strongly, brutal competition that's deeply seeping into the culture and strong inequality…

I don't know if "a culture that emphasizes individuality far too strongly" is a 2000 phenomenon - US in general and West Coast specifically has been defined by rugged individualism historically.

But I'd add decline in church attendance to the list of reasons - churches used to be a natural "third space" for people to meet, socialize and have shared experiences leading to some potential societal bonding.

Nowadays nominees for societal "third space" beyond residence and work office are local sports, shopping malls or Starbucks, which, contrary to television portrayals of them, don't quite provide social experiences.

You actually have to go out of your way to have an offline shared collaborative experience with a group of local people, either by volunteering or joining some one-off clubs like reading groups or moms meetups.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#82

Post by prostoalex » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 10:00 AM UTC

dlwdlw wrote: post #54

I'm not sure the proportion, but there do exist certain people who are self destructive yet also self entitled. It's the state of mind that drives a person to gamble everything they own. Either the universe agrees with then and they do become the greatest person they think they are, or more likely, they fail and wallow in rage. In a way, it's like a child throwing a tantrum, threatening all sorts of things, knowing t…

> Note that money in the end will always be spent on meaning regardless of rich or poor. . The poor don't save because they can't see what to do with it.

The type of "easy come, easy go" behavior is way more prevalent among poor than rich. I remember reading an article (impossible to dig out with generic keywords I can come up with) describing a study in savings pattern where they distributed small amounts of extra cash to poor households. Some of the money went to cover bills, so deleveraging previous debts, but even at those households that ended up with a surplus of cash the savings never materialized into anything meaningful and long-term. Several reasons for that:

1) Accumulated previous debts for things like cars, medical debts, furniture rentals. Some with ballooning interests, some with predatory late fees that have their own ballooning interests.

2) Accumulated ongoing liabilities for things such as parental support.

3) Because of the way collection agencies or government can always freeze the current assets and garnish the paycheck, general distrust of US banking system and preference for hard, cold cash.

4) General feeling of lack of control over one's finances, and surprisingly rational decision to blow the extra cash immediately because #yolo, and one never knows when a relative, an ex, a random bill collector or The Man will take that money anyway with nothing to show for it.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#83

Post by tonyedgecombe » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 10:02 AM UTC

EdSharkey wrote: post #41

mc32 wrote: post #12

I have no idea how to solve the poverty issue. I don't think there is a way other than subsidizing a portion of the population. Even in Soviet Russia you had some very dedicated people (say scientists and bureaucrats who made things happen) and you also had very unproductive people who retained jobs they had contempt for. That said, with regard to health wellbeing we need a few things: -Reduce costs (cost per person…

Government regulations created the twisted non-market for healthcare that exists in the united states. Pretty please don't sign us up for more government. You know there are 7 big health care providers in my state building spectacular facilities as fast as they can, and they don't have to compete with each other? There's no competition. Every pleb goes dutifully to the assigned provider his employer sends him to. You…

Lack of good government regulation is what created the mess you are in, the real world isn't like some Ayn Rand novel.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#84

Post by tonyedgecombe » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 10:08 AM UTC

hal9000xp wrote: post #71

As a person who was extremely poor by western standards (in 2002, I earned 10 USD per month in Uzbekistan) and who lived among poor people for 22 years, I can say that poverty is a personal choice, period. Here is my answer on Quora with more details: https://www.quora.com/Are-poor-people-lazy/answer/Eldar-Gayn... I copy this answer here: I born in Uzbekistan in relatively poor family. At age of 18 (2002 year), I sta…

Isn't that a classic example of survivorship bias.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#85

Post by slackingoff2017 » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 10:17 AM UTC

jimmies wrote: post #2

Regarding blaming each other for their misfortune, I have an anecdotal experience I want to share. I don't know if that's just me or this phenomenal happens to everyone else as well: That's the "fuck you/who cares/deal with it" attitude. The "fuck you" attitude can be summarized as people won't go the extra mile to help other people. It is the non-sympathy, non-action I get from everyday people (including the police)…

You may want to consider a move to a happier place, the Midwest is not doing well these days. I moved from an economically depressed city in the midwest to a southern tech boomtown a few years ago and the difference in mood is striking. Everyone is new here, everyone is making good money. Remember how it was right before the housing crisis or before the dotcom bubble burst? That's how it feels here.

The Midwest is messed up. Almost every major city is having budget problems, increasing unemployment and crime, higher taxes. Industry is leaving or has already left, and the rich people (who proportionally pay most of the taxes) are following. The Midwest used to be known for manufacturing and heavy industry and these are the two segments of the economy hit hardest by globalization.

Illinois is the best example of this. It's the only state with a shrinking population, and the average income of people leaving is almost $25,000 more than those moving in. People that can afford to leave easily are jumping ship. The south side collapsed with the steel industry thirty years ago and sent the state into a slow decline. Only the north end of Chicago is even worth visiting these days. The rest of the city and state is functionally bankrupt.

If you don't want to move as far there's a couple cities diversified enough to avoid the decline. Madison WI is the best example I can think of. Otherwise do yourself a favor and visit some reputable cities in the sun belt.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#86

Post by andai » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 10:33 AM UTC

slavik81 wrote: post #77

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe there is a philosophical divide between us, but this argument sounds really weird to me. From his/her point of view, of course being born to educated parents is luck, if not what else is it? We don't have any choice or any influence on the matter of who we are born to, and we cannot change it with our effort or lack of it. The fact that from their parents' point of view it's not luck, because they worked for it…

What isn't luck? I only am who I am today because of a combination of nature and nurture. My genes and my environment defined who I am. I had no control over either of those things. I mean, if I was born on Steve Job's birthday, with Steve Job's genes, to Steve Job's parents, presumably I would be Steve Jobs. From that perspective, it's pure luck I'm not a billionaire. And, similarly, pure luck that I'm not literally…

Do we make our own destiny, or does our destiny make us?

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#87

Post by honestoHeminway » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 10:38 AM UTC

I think the most important experience a poor man can have is "Selbstwirksamkeit", the experience, that one can influence ones own destiny and not remain a puppet to be pushed around, slaved and sheparded by bosses, police and landlords.

We should make that epxerience part of any curiculum on public schools.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#88

Post by andai » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 10:39 AM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #68

hueving wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Physical effort has no (and should not have) a bearing on how much you are paid. Work smarter, not harder. A society doesn't advance if everyone spends all day digging ditches with spoons.

You'd be surprised how fast a society can collapse if it's left to wannabe Einsteins and Feynmans and Elon Musks and nobody is there to dig ditches, clean the garbage and work the assembly line. Or how better a society would be without tons of well paid white collar jobs (advertisers for one).

But how am I supposed to know what to buy!

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#89

Post by wyager » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 10:54 AM UTC

jimmies wrote: post #2

Regarding blaming each other for their misfortune, I have an anecdotal experience I want to share. I don't know if that's just me or this phenomenal happens to everyone else as well: That's the "fuck you/who cares/deal with it" attitude. The "fuck you" attitude can be summarized as people won't go the extra mile to help other people. It is the non-sympathy, non-action I get from everyday people (including the police)…

Having lived all over the US, I believe that small homogenous rural towns are the most empathetic/friendly places available. The human brain didn't evolved to form strong, productive social bonds in the presence of millions of people. It seems to wear on people after a while. Whenever I visit little towns in ID/MT/WY/TX I always smile at how nice people are.

Unfortunately, those small towns are intellectually understimulating, so you either have to be selective or invent some kind of city I haven't come across yet. The closest I've seen to a friendly large city is actually Hanoi. Maybe the secret sauce is just homogeneity, and small towns are partially just nicer because they're usually more homogenous.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#90

Post by TheAdamAndChe » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 11:28 AM UTC

slackingoff2017 wrote: post #85

jimmies wrote: post #2

Regarding blaming each other for their misfortune, I have an anecdotal experience I want to share. I don't know if that's just me or this phenomenal happens to everyone else as well: That's the "fuck you/who cares/deal with it" attitude. The "fuck you" attitude can be summarized as people won't go the extra mile to help other people. It is the non-sympathy, non-action I get from everyday people (including the police)…

You may want to consider a move to a happier place, the Midwest is not doing well these days. I moved from an economically depressed city in the midwest to a southern tech boomtown a few years ago and the difference in mood is striking. Everyone is new here, everyone is making good money. Remember how it was right before the housing crisis or before the dotcom bubble burst? That's how it feels here. The Midwest is me…

> ...do yourself a favor and visit some reputable cities in the sun belt.

On an individual level this might make sense, but if everyone does this, it just amplifies existing problems. In the city you're leaving, inequality would just grow worse, there would be a brain drain, and family support structures would weaken. In the city you're going to, housing costs would go up, and pockets of area would be insulated from the wider reality of economic decline. This would cause areas of the country that strongly vote one way, and the rest of the country would vote the other.

Instead of encouraging people to just move, why not encourage people to stay and help those who are experiencing a declining quality of life? It would accomplish more than just leaving to "reputable," aka "rich" cities.