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Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

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Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#71
As a person who was extremely poor by western standards (in 2002, I earned 10 USD per month in Uzbekistan) and who lived among poor people for 22 years, I can say that poverty is a personal choice, period.

Here is my answer on Quora with more details:

https://www.quora.com/Are-poor-people-lazy/answer/Eldar-Gayn...

I copy this answer here:

I born in Uzbekistan in relatively poor family. At age of 18 (2002 year), I started work in internet cafe (~5 computers) as a network administrator (although, I was blatantly ignorant at that moment) for salary … 10 USD per month. I didn’t studied at school and dropped of university since education system in Uzbekistan is just literally fake.

Since then, I lived and worked in Moscow, Stockholm and currently in Amsterdam and receive good salary as a software developer (pretty close to upper bound according to GlassDoor). Although, I still don’t have any degree!

So I think I’m qualified to answer this question.

Short answer: From my long and close experience living among poor people I can say that most people stay in poverty all their live because they are lazy. And in most cases, it’s their fault that they stay in poverty (especially for those who live in english speaking rich western countries like US).

Long answer:

You may wonder how poor people can be lazy if they do hard manual job 10 hours per day. I think laziness have several different dimensions.

In general, I consider laziness as unwillingness to do some actions which could be beneficial for you in long term but require sacrifices in short term.

What does it mean for poor hard working people in practice?

It means that although they are willing to do hard job for 10 hours per day, they are unwilling to invest their free time to learn skills which can give them higher income in distant future.

They consider it’s easier and more realistic to do hard work right now because they almost instantly benefited from their job even if it’s hard labor job than studying something which don’t bring them instant profit and require commitment over very long period of time.

It may sound counter-intuitive but it’s fairly logical. If you wash dishes, you guaranteed to get almost instant profit (by end of the day, or week, or month). If you are reading some theory in a book, you don’t get instant profit at all. For them, it seem a big sacrifice to do something and get nothing in relatively short term.

Also, they have little time aside from their main job. For them, it looks quite irrational to read some technical books instead of drinking beer and watching football.

So poor people are quite lazy for learning new skills and prefer to do any hard job with instant profit instead.

All my life, I heard from poor people that I read completely useless stuff and waste my time. Learning mathematics and algorithms for them is completely nuts, useless stuff. I very often heard popular jokes like (this joke was popular in my post-soviet school in Uzbekistan): Why anyone need an integral? Integral is needed only when you need to get some stuff dropped into public toilet (they refer to stick having form of integral symbol).

So they drank a beer for years while I studied “useless garbage”. Now, they are still in Uzbekistan struggling to feed their new families and I’m in Amsterdam, able to travel around the world.

To me, it’s very unlikely to image highly curious person who are hungry to lean new stuff and still staying in poverty for years.

Those who are not lazy to learn get out of poverty soon or later. Just like me :)

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know... there are such things as facts. In 2014, "Vulnerable Populations" made up 80% of the poor in the USA. That essentially means children and the elderly. On top of that, it's like another 7% of people that are in poverty that are fully employed! http://www.demos.org/blog/10/23/15/2014-vulnerable-populatio...

Nov 7, 2016 "fact": Hillary Clinton has a 98.2% chance of winning the presidency: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/polls-hillary-clinton-wi... There are facts, but it does them no service to overstate what the evidence actually says.

You know that events with probability less than 1.8% are happening all the time, right?

The probability of dying in a car crash is way less than 1% and still some people are unlucky enough to die in this way every day. It's a matter of sample size. In the same way, the vast majority of the time a candidate with a very slim chance won't make it to presidency, but it happened that Trump did.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#74

As a person who was extremely poor by western standards (in 2002, I earned 10 USD per month in Uzbekistan) and who lived among poor people for 22 years, I can say that poverty is a personal choice, period. Here is my answer on Quora with more details: https://www.quora.com/Are-poor-people-lazy/answer/Eldar-Gayn... I copy this answer here: I born in Uzbekistan in relatively poor family. At age of 18 (2002 year), I sta…

Interesting life experience. However, I think you will agree that being lazy in the sense you describe is a trait of most humans, rich or poor. Non-poor people are just conditioned by their social environment to study, get a degree, etc. instead of not to. Many successful people would have been poor if they were born in your situation, because they don't have the personality or guts to go against peer pressure. And many of the poor Uzbek people you mention would probably have been successful if they had been born in a social environment where people were highly qualified and studied.

Taking this into account, I can agree that it's possible to get out of poverty, but I don't think one can say being poor is poor people's fault.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#75

The more time goes by, the more I am wary of the false dilemma. Almost anytime I see someone argue "you might think it's because of X, but it's really because of Y," the person speaking is selling a particular ideology. That ideology magnifies Y and minimizes X. It would be perfectly fine to say "you might be aware of X, but you should also be aware of Y." But pieces like this don't do that. They seek to tell you you…

These articles also sell it without a solution. "It isn't X, it is Y. I have no idea how to fix Y, or a single policy idea to suggest, but, yeh, definitely Y." We are all obsessed with what policy makes us feel, rather than its impact. Example: Seattle minimum wage laws https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.meer/posts/101031868860665... let me quote here: > This is the official study that was commissioned several years a…

That study had serious flaws in the data they were looking at, and their analysis.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know... there are such things as facts. In 2014, "Vulnerable Populations" made up 80% of the poor in the USA. That essentially means children and the elderly. On top of that, it's like another 7% of people that are in poverty that are fully employed! http://www.demos.org/blog/10/23/15/2014-vulnerable-populatio...

Nov 7, 2016 "fact": Hillary Clinton has a 98.2% chance of winning the presidency: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/polls-hillary-clinton-wi... There are facts, but it does them no service to overstate what the evidence actually says.

It was factually true that their method of weighting and averaging polling data produced that result.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being born to two educated parents is not luck on your part, but well deserved reward for a long, concerted effort on theirs. You're not a random happening on a clean slate; you're just the latest offshoot of a family.

Maybe there is a philosophical divide between us, but this argument sounds really weird to me. From his/her point of view, of course being born to educated parents is luck, if not what else is it? We don't have any choice or any influence on the matter of who we are born to, and we cannot change it with our effort or lack of it. The fact that from their parents' point of view it's not luck, because they worked for it…

What isn't luck? I only am who I am today because of a combination of nature and nurture. My genes and my environment defined who I am. I had no control over either of those things.

I mean, if I was born on Steve Job's birthday, with Steve Job's genes, to Steve Job's parents, presumably I would be Steve Jobs. From that perspective, it's pure luck I'm not a billionaire. And, similarly, pure luck that I'm not literally Hitler.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#78
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up in a small town in the Midwest and one thing I've noticed is income stratification has had an impact. It used to be more prevalent for your police officer, postman, waitress, or hairdresser to be able to afford to live in your town. Their kids would go to school with your kids, or you might go to the same church. But a lot more families struggle while others have done very well. I see a huge disparity in in…

Oddly enough, I'm the first to admit that I've achieved my level of income by luck, and without hard work. I was lucky to have two educated parents, their wealth to fall back on, and an affluent, healthy environment to grow up in. My parents paid for my undergraduate education, and the government paid for my graduate degree. I "work" in a nice office, by playing with equations and gadgets, and talking to people. Mean…

I guess my history is almost opposite while achieving similar results. However, I get bunched in the same group and expected to feel privileged and guilty.

I grew up in another country and went to end of junior + high school in a US school in the inner city where nobody studied in my class except for me. 65% of the class never graduated. My parents, although very educated in our home country never paid for school and worked very bad jobs initially here such as postal service worker and person who poses census questions.

Although I never did particularly well in school in my home country, I did extremely well in the US because everyone else wasn't doing anything. I was ranked 10th in a graduating class of 900 students and did well on the SATs except for the English section. However, I got into many fights to protect my image in school or things would have gotten worse for me there. This resulted in not being able to get into decent colleges since for whatever reason that is reflected on your "record".

Finally, this apathetic behavior of my classmates and friends transformed me a little and i did poorly first couple of years of college. However, impending struggles with job market made me get back to studying. I took more loans to pay for my undergrad + masters and graduated with a decent GPA + research. Then got a job in software and now almost finished paying off loans.

Let me describe what high school life is like in inner city public high schools:

People growing up in inner cities are treated like animals in the cafeteria and elsewhere. There are police officers with guns. There are literal metal bars on the windows and only plastic utensils are allowed in cafeteria. Fights happen where everyone jumps on the tables and cheers on. There are metal chains on doors for students not to escape midway during school day. There are metal detectors at the entrance in case students bring guns. You can go to the bathroom during class only 5 times in 6 months. You are taught how to add fractions in grade 10 math class. Guidance counselors never help you and always try to do the least amount of work possible. I had to talk to the principal to make them let me take a math test to test out of elementary school math. Had to switch math classes to get a math teacher to let me go to a math olympiad.

The experience for me closely matched what American movies would show prisons are like. The students themselves think "nerds" are incredibly uncool and the coolest people are rappers + sports stars. I think median amount of time people spent doing homework there is about 0 seconds. Almost everyone constantly talks during class and you can barely hear the teacher.

After escaping this circus, I'm expected to feel sympathy for some of the people who were my classmates.

So while I still think I got lucky in terms of intelligence, the solution to this problem is to change the culture. For example, in my old country, there is literally no commonly used word for "nerds" and people who get good grades are considered cool.

Additionally, going to college for vast majority of students especially those who come from high schools like mine is a waste of time. There should be trade schools. There should be a major high school reform. People who act like prisoners should be put in some sort of boarding school so they stop poisoning the well for others. People who participate in a fight by the virtue of being attacked by others shouldn't get detentions. It should be explained to their parents that this behavior is completely not OK. Media should stop idolizing singers + sports players. In fact, MTV programming should be completely remade into a subtle pro-education propaganda channel. Cancer like Jerry Springer et al should be canceled.

It is totally possible to graduate from these high schools and do well.

The problem is not money, but culture. Privilege has _nothing_ to do with it since tons of people in much much poorer countries with schools that have a lot fewer funds do a lot better.

I feel like most people don't understand what American education/school culture is really like in inner cities and what students are really like who go there. Here are a couple of movies that somewhat match my experience:

The Class (2008) - French film but similar (milder) situation.

Kids (1995) - Very accurate but little to do with education.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oddly enough, I'm the first to admit that I've achieved my level of income by luck, and without hard work. I was lucky to have two educated parents, their wealth to fall back on, and an affluent, healthy environment to grow up in. My parents paid for my undergraduate education, and the government paid for my graduate degree. I "work" in a nice office, by playing with equations and gadgets, and talking to people. Mean…

Being born to two educated parents is not luck on your part, but well deserved reward for a long, concerted effort on theirs. You're not a random happening on a clean slate; you're just the latest offshoot of a family.

He's not saying his parents are lucky, he's saying that he is lucky.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#80
post #18
post #2

Regarding blaming each other for their misfortune, I have an anecdotal experience I want to share. I don't know if that's just me or this phenomenal happens to everyone else as well: That's the "fuck you/who cares/deal with it" attitude. The "fuck you" attitude can be summarized as people won't go the extra mile to help other people. It is the non-sympathy, non-action I get from everyday people (including the police)…

I notice this as well. I think a lot of it comes down to modern society being so complex that most people are unwilling or unable to do anything "extra" like that, at least not regularly. Not only that, but companies and governments are so complex that they resort to bureaucracy as a way to attempt to make things predictable. Every action people take is driven by such a complex web of incentives these days, that risk…

Just a different perspective to answer this (and I am open to being wrong): competition b/w societies is decreasing. We live in an increasingly bureaucratic, interconnected, globalized world, and I think it is an undiscussed reason for this.

The incentives and disincentives to care for your neighbour or not, or to care for your group, decreased, and it will keep decreasing if this trend continues.

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