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Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

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Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#131

Post by TheAdamAndChe »

humanrebar wrote: post #119
Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do most people in the US seem to never look abroad when it comes to healthcare? The US healthcare system is probably the most privatized in the developed world. The systems in other developed countries (e.g. any European country) give more weight to the government, and have been shown by all sorts of metric to work much better. How can you still say "don't sign us up for more government"?

> Why do most people in the US seem to never look abroad when it comes to healthcare? The Brits were just debating how much nurses should get paid. When government runs your organization, math and economics become subservient to politics. > The US healthcare system is probably the most privatized in the developed world. It has privatized profits, but the whole system is heavily regulated. Prices for things are certai…

> Prices for things are certainly not set on open markets.

You say this, yet Americans pay twice as much for care that is of considerably lower quality than other civilized countries. Do you think it's a coincidence that in one of the most privatized for-profit healthcare industries in the civilized world, we pay more? Sure, other systems have issues and are not perfect, but that doesn't excuse America's substandard healthcare system.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#132

Post by Broken_Hippo »

wyager wrote: post #89
jimmies wrote: post #2

Regarding blaming each other for their misfortune, I have an anecdotal experience I want to share. I don't know if that's just me or this phenomenal happens to everyone else as well: That's the "fuck you/who cares/deal with it" attitude. The "fuck you" attitude can be summarized as people won't go the extra mile to help other people. It is the non-sympathy, non-action I get from everyday people (including the police)…

Having lived all over the US, I believe that small homogenous rural towns are the most empathetic/friendly places available. The human brain didn't evolved to form strong, productive social bonds in the presence of millions of people. It seems to wear on people after a while. Whenever I visit little towns in ID/MT/WY/TX I always smile at how nice people are. Unfortunately, those small towns are intellectually underst…

Small, homogenous rural towns aren't so bad if you fit into the culture that is there. You'll always be an outsider, but it'll go well enough. It'll be a bit harder if you seem like an outsider, but if you are normal enough, this'll pass. Lots of folks will act friendly to you in the meantime.

However, if you are weird or alternative enough? Perhaps you aren't keen on religion? Or something similar? Yeah, these places can get pretty lonely and some of those folks don't extend their kindness to you... unless someone will see them.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#133

Post by hueving »

humanrebar wrote: post #127
hueving wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the sad state of politics today (particularly in the US). Choose your god, individualism or collectivism, and all of the answers will be presented to you in black and white in a way that supports your god.

The federal system was supposed to help with this by allowing various approaches in various parts of the country. I think the state of politics today is due to the nationalization of every issue. If California and Texas (for example) each decided it was more important to govern themselves than each other, it would be lower stakes and more productive to talk about issues like this.

Unfortunately people are really bad at reigning in their own power. So whichever side holds the federal office will naturally impose their view on the rest of the country.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#134

Post by humanrebar »

hueving wrote: post #133
humanrebar wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The federal system was supposed to help with this by allowing various approaches in various parts of the country. I think the state of politics today is due to the nationalization of every issue. If California and Texas (for example) each decided it was more important to govern themselves than each other, it would be lower stakes and more productive to talk about issues like this.

Unfortunately people are really bad at reigning in their own power. So whichever side holds the federal office will naturally impose their view on the rest of the country.

There were constitutional protections for exactly this reason. We just decided they didn't count any more.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#135

Post by hueving »

ue_ wrote: post #103
hueving wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the sad state of politics today (particularly in the US). Choose your god, individualism or collectivism, and all of the answers will be presented to you in black and white in a way that supports your god.

There are many people who find the collectivisim/individualism distinction facile and inadequate, though. I feel you're making a point about ideology in general, however I can't see what's wrong with subscribing to a particular ideology, so long as you agree with it. The point is not to follow it dogmatically.

The point I was trying to make was that the discourse is so dogmatic it's as if people live in alternate universes.

People can't even mention certain topics because the word you use to describe the topic reveals which "side" you are on (e.g. the "Muslim ban").

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#136

Post by humanrebar »

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #131
humanrebar wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do most people in the US seem to never look abroad when it comes to healthcare? The Brits were just debating how much nurses should get paid. When government runs your organization, math and economics become subservient to politics. > The US healthcare system is probably the most privatized in the developed world. It has privatized profits, but the whole system is heavily regulated. Prices for things are certai…

> Prices for things are certainly not set on open markets. You say this, yet Americans pay twice as much for care that is of considerably lower quality than other civilized countries. Do you think it's a coincidence that in one of the most privatized for-profit healthcare industries in the civilized world, we pay more? Sure, other systems have issues and are not perfect, but that doesn't excuse America's substandard…

Again, it's private and for profit, but it's not market based. It's just a big ball of bureaucracy, unintended consequences, and corruption (at least in the sense that the system isn't following its intended purposes). If it were market based, there would be a trivially discoverable price for commodity operations and such.

How much does it cost for a skin cancer screening in Topeka? It depends? Well, that's a routine procedure that isn't really offered in the open market. It should just have published (and even advertised!) prices so normal consumers can shop around for quality screenings at fair prices.

I'm very critical of the American healthcare system, if that wasn't clear. But its failings are certainly not being too market based or too unregulated.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#137

Post by humanrebar »

rayiner wrote: post #113
humanrebar wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...is a whole lot of luck and privilege. I really dislike the language of privilege in this context. I'm not sure what point it serves other to diminish someone else. Some people are smart. That's as much a part of them as their skin color or sexual identity. Should they feel apologetic about that? Also, as a counterpoint, I know brilliant people who wasted that talent on drugs and other things.

Not apologetic, but gracious and humble. It's like how you act about physical attractiveness if you're Chris Pine.

I agree with this attitude. My point was that 'privilege' is a loaded word these days. It doesn't convey this attitude. At least not to me.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#138

Post by Jotra7 »

humanrebar wrote: post #125
RobertoG wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading your comment, it just occurred to me that I don't know if there is any country where healthcare works well without government intervention. We always talk about the USA vs. Europe, but I don't know if there are other examples that we can borrow. When you talk about market directed healthcare, do you have any example in mind?

Has it even been tried in a developed country in the last 100 years? The US has had distorted markets dating back to the 1930s at least.

No true Scotsman all up in here.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#139

Post by durge »

jimnotgym wrote: post #100

For anyone who wants to investigate the connection between poverty and society further, I can highly recommend, Rutger Bregman's book 'Utopia for realists'. It is funny to see cases in history where well researched,cost effective and progressive social programs have been stopped due to plain prejudice from those in power. I keep hearing Ayn Rand mentioned these days. Reading those long tedious books can give you fodd…

I would also reccomend 'The Unwinding' by George Packer.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#140

Post by jimmies »

slackingoff2017 wrote: post #85
jimmies wrote: post #2

Regarding blaming each other for their misfortune, I have an anecdotal experience I want to share. I don't know if that's just me or this phenomenal happens to everyone else as well: That's the "fuck you/who cares/deal with it" attitude. The "fuck you" attitude can be summarized as people won't go the extra mile to help other people. It is the non-sympathy, non-action I get from everyday people (including the police)…

You may want to consider a move to a happier place, the Midwest is not doing well these days. I moved from an economically depressed city in the midwest to a southern tech boomtown a few years ago and the difference in mood is striking. Everyone is new here, everyone is making good money. Remember how it was right before the housing crisis or before the dotcom bubble burst? That's how it feels here. The Midwest is me…

Thank you for the advice - I'm moving (to the coast). I'm just staying in here for my education (college and post-graduate degree).

What is sad was the town I'm living in is a college town, and I can't imagine it being uninviting before I moved here. I used to live in a smaller college town, and while it was really really small, I didn't feel that way.

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