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Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

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Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#121

Post by brightball »

jimnotgym wrote: post #100

For anyone who wants to investigate the connection between poverty and society further, I can highly recommend, Rutger Bregman's book 'Utopia for realists'. It is funny to see cases in history where well researched,cost effective and progressive social programs have been stopped due to plain prejudice from those in power. I keep hearing Ayn Rand mentioned these days. Reading those long tedious books can give you fodd…

Regarding Rand, I hear her referenced more by libertarian detractors than any actual libertarians.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#122

Post by humanrebar »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #83
EdSharkey wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government regulations created the twisted non-market for healthcare that exists in the united states. Pretty please don't sign us up for more government. You know there are 7 big health care providers in my state building spectacular facilities as fast as they can, and they don't have to compete with each other? There's no competition. Every pleb goes dutifully to the assigned provider his employer sends him to. You…

Lack of good government regulation is what created the mess you are in, the real world isn't like some Ayn Rand novel.

"Good" government regulation is what created the mess. Patents on prescriptions. When loopholes can be applied or not to offer generics. Licensing and certifications. What counts as "health insurance". What kinds of medical practices can be opened. What drugs can be offered across state or national boundaries. Who gets discounts on health insurance (employers) and who doesn't (employees).

The list goes on.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#123

Post by andai »

ebcode wrote: post #72
known wrote: post #57

I'd say poverty is a reflection of Pyramid schemes.

Like the pyramid scheme on the back of the one dollar bill? That floating eye makes me poorer every time I see it.

Sorry if I'm killing a joke or something, but could you please clarify?

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#124

Post by k__ »

humanrebar wrote: post #101
jimnotgym wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who says his parents were not lucky too? No offense intended to OP, but they could have been two rich dropouts who lived their lives in a squat, lapsed into drug addiction and then found one of their estranged parents had died and left them $10m. The myth that rich people are rich because they worked hard is just that, a myth. The myth that a family is rich because generations worked hard is just ignorant. Please ref…

"A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in." You might be right, but we need to honor people for taking care of the next generation by working hard, being clever, and making good decisions. And aristocracy aside, people who were "privileged" are generally children of people who make good decisions, take care of their kids, and typically love them. To act like that is…

I think the problem here is that the do it for their kids.

Family businesses are generally know for planning more for the future than non-family businesses.

But they don't do it because they think it's good for society to build something sustainable for the future. They do it for their kids, which sounds nice first, but is a rather selfish reason.

Yes they go one step further, they don't just want to enrich themselves in person, but also other people who happen to be their kids, but in the end it's just individualism on a higher abstraction level.

Behaviour that is really honourable doesn't just benefit you and your family, it benefits as much non-related people as possible.

I mean, on another level this this the same as with white men only hiring other white men. Sure they grow big companies, are successful and help other people, but people who aren't white or aren't men won't get as much out of it.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#125

Post by humanrebar »

RobertoG wrote: post #69
EdSharkey wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government regulations created the twisted non-market for healthcare that exists in the united states. Pretty please don't sign us up for more government. You know there are 7 big health care providers in my state building spectacular facilities as fast as they can, and they don't have to compete with each other? There's no competition. Every pleb goes dutifully to the assigned provider his employer sends him to. You…

Reading your comment, it just occurred to me that I don't know if there is any country where healthcare works well without government intervention. We always talk about the USA vs. Europe, but I don't know if there are other examples that we can borrow. When you talk about market directed healthcare, do you have any example in mind?

Has it even been tried in a developed country in the last 100 years? The US has had distorted markets dating back to the 1930s at least.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#126

Post by kabouseng »

prostoalex wrote: post #81
petra wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, research is showing a huge decline(40%) in empathy between 2000-2010: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/born-love/201005/shocke... The article mentions few of the possible core reasons: a large decline in face to face time which is being replaced by the likes of facebook, a culture that emphasizes individuality far too strongly, brutal competition that's deeply seeping into the culture and strong inequality…

I don't know if "a culture that emphasizes individuality far too strongly" is a 2000 phenomenon - US in general and West Coast specifically has been defined by rugged individualism historically. But I'd add decline in church attendance to the list of reasons - churches used to be a natural "third space" for people to meet, socialize and have shared experiences leading to some potential societal bonding. Nowadays nomi…

Don't forget you get a greater abundance of "meetups" type clubs and meetings than you did a couple of years ago, which can offset the reduction of "third spaces".

Ok, meetups are in my experience still a niche / nerdy occurrence but it is getting more and more main stream.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#127

Post by humanrebar »

hueving wrote: post #39
haberman wrote: post #11

The more time goes by, the more I am wary of the false dilemma. Almost anytime I see someone argue "you might think it's because of X, but it's really because of Y," the person speaking is selling a particular ideology. That ideology magnifies Y and minimizes X. It would be perfectly fine to say "you might be aware of X, but you should also be aware of Y." But pieces like this don't do that. They seek to tell you you…

This is the sad state of politics today (particularly in the US). Choose your god, individualism or collectivism, and all of the answers will be presented to you in black and white in a way that supports your god.

The federal system was supposed to help with this by allowing various approaches in various parts of the country. I think the state of politics today is due to the nationalization of every issue.

If California and Texas (for example) each decided it was more important to govern themselves than each other, it would be lower stakes and more productive to talk about issues like this.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#128

Post by shaftoe »

rayiner wrote: post #114
shaftoe wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is fatalism and societies that adopt this attitude fall into some nasty traps. For example, there's no point to solving problems because it's the will of God.

It's not fatalism. It's about recognizing that a more economically even society is warranted because people shouldn't get outsized credit (or be disproportionately punished) for things outside their control.

Real life is complicated. Who decides what is in their control? What if it's a combination?

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#129

Post by sheepmullet »

rayiner wrote: post #114
shaftoe wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is fatalism and societies that adopt this attitude fall into some nasty traps. For example, there's no point to solving problems because it's the will of God.

It's not fatalism. It's about recognizing that a more economically even society is warranted because people shouldn't get outsized credit (or be disproportionately punished) for things outside their control.

Society gains incredible wealth from the desire to gain outsized credit for those we care about.

Economic evening can quickly become a poison.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#130

Post by humanrebar »

michaelchisari wrote: post #22
jimmies wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>As a really poor immigrant to the US who succeeded financially, I can tell you with absolute certainty, poverty in the US (barring mental illness cases or health issues) is the result of poor choices. I'm an immigrant too, and I used to think I was in a bad situation. However, I think you don't understand how bad it could get for some American people. Being a poor immigrant won't give you a free pass when you talk a…

I have friends who grew up in situations like that. Nowadays, they are doing ok. Solidly lower-middle-class, but considering where they came from, that's a huge deal. But even with these success stories, I think, nobody should have been in the situation they were in to begin with. No 16 year old should have to pick up a second job so they can pay their parents rent. Nobody should have to deal with a drug addicted par…

> No 16 year old should have to pick up a second job so they can pay their parents rent.

I helped pay the bills as a teenager. It wasn't the worst thing in the world. It's not preferable, but it's not cancer.

> Nobody should have to take on their parents massive debt because their single mother got breast cancer in her early 40's.

Agreed on this, but at some point we're angry at nature, not society. I'm not sure at what point I'm supposed to be mad at society or individuals or whatever about natural disasters, disease, and death.

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