Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society • Hacker News Board

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#101

Post by humanrebar » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 11:58 AM UTC

jimnotgym wrote: post #95

unsigner wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being born to two educated parents is not luck on your part, but well deserved reward for a long, concerted effort on theirs. You're not a random happening on a clean slate; you're just the latest offshoot of a family.

Who says his parents were not lucky too? No offense intended to OP, but they could have been two rich dropouts who lived their lives in a squat, lapsed into drug addiction and then found one of their estranged parents had died and left them $10m. The myth that rich people are rich because they worked hard is just that, a myth. The myth that a family is rich because generations worked hard is just ignorant. Please ref…

"A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in."

You might be right, but we need to honor people for taking care of the next generation by working hard, being clever, and making good decisions.

And aristocracy aside, people who were "privileged" are generally children of people who make good decisions, take care of their kids, and typically love them. To act like that is all just the roll of the dice is to diminish the hard work and sacrifice it takes to be a good parent and a productive member of society.

What happens when the old men who plant trees are greeted with nihilism and apathy?

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#102

Post by ue_ » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 11:59 AM UTC

hueving wrote: post #37

analog31 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oddly enough, I'm the first to admit that I've achieved my level of income by luck, and without hard work. I was lucky to have two educated parents, their wealth to fall back on, and an affluent, healthy environment to grow up in. My parents paid for my undergraduate education, and the government paid for my graduate degree. I "work" in a nice office, by playing with equations and gadgets, and talking to people. Mean…

Physical effort has no (and should not have) a bearing on how much you are paid. Work smarter, not harder. A society doesn't advance if everyone spends all day digging ditches with spoons.

Eh, maybe. Marx's idea of the socially necessary labour time fits into this quite well, as he wrote in Capital vol. 1:

Some people might think that if the value of a commodity is determined by the quantity of labour spent on it, the more idle and unskilful the labourer, the more valuable would his commodity be, because more time would be required in its production. The labour, however, that forms the substance of value, is homogeneous human labour, expenditure of one uniform labour power. The total labour power of society, which is embodied in the sum total of the values of all commodities produced by that society, counts here as one homogeneous mass of human labour power, composed though it be of innumerable individual units. Each of these units is the same as any other, so far as it has the character of the average labour power of society, and takes effect as such; that is, so far as it requires for producing a commodity, no more time than is needed on an average, no more than is socially necessary. The labour time socially necessary is that required to produce an article under the normal conditions of production, and with the average degree of skill and intensity prevalent at the time. The introduction of power-looms into England probably reduced by one-half the labour required to weave a given quantity of yarn into cloth. The hand-loom weavers, as a matter of fact, continued to require the same time as before; but for all that, the product of one hour of their labour represented after the change only half an hour’s social labour, and consequently fell to one-half its former value.

However it's worth noting that Marxian economics does not propose that people are paid according to the value they produce, but rather the amount required for the worker to reproduce his labour-power commodity (this is what he actually sells), so the question of payment at least from the Marxian perspective becomes moot.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#103

Post by ue_ » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 12:01 PM UTC

hueving wrote: post #39

haberman wrote: post #11

The more time goes by, the more I am wary of the false dilemma. Almost anytime I see someone argue "you might think it's because of X, but it's really because of Y," the person speaking is selling a particular ideology. That ideology magnifies Y and minimizes X. It would be perfectly fine to say "you might be aware of X, but you should also be aware of Y." But pieces like this don't do that. They seek to tell you you…

This is the sad state of politics today (particularly in the US). Choose your god, individualism or collectivism, and all of the answers will be presented to you in black and white in a way that supports your god.

There are many people who find the collectivisim/individualism distinction facile and inadequate, though. I feel you're making a point about ideology in general, however I can't see what's wrong with subscribing to a particular ideology, so long as you agree with it. The point is not to follow it dogmatically.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#104

Post by dredmorbius » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 12:03 PM UTC

"It may be said that of this hard lot no one has any reason to complain, because it befalls those only who are outstripped by others, from inferiority of energy or of prudence. This, even were it true, would be a very small alleviation of the evil. If some Nero or Domitian were to require a hundred persons to run a race for their lives, on condition that the fifty or twenty who came in hindmost should be put to death, it would not be any diminution of the injustice that the strongest or nimblest would, except through some untoward accident, be certain to escape. The misery and the crime would be that any were put to death at all. So in the economy of society; if there be any who suffer physical privation or moral degradation, whose bodily necessities are either not satisfied or satisfied in a manner which only brutish creatures can be content with, this, though not necessarily the crime of society, is pro tanto a failure of the social arrangements."

John Stuart Mill, Chapters on Socialism

https://archive.org/stream/chaptersonsocial00mill#page/264/m...

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#105

Post by humanrebar » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 12:05 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #94

throwaway399 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess my history is almost opposite while achieving similar results. However, I get bunched in the same group and expected to feel privileged and guilty. I grew up in another country and went to end of junior + high school in a US school in the inner city where nobody studied in my class except for me. 65% of the class never graduated. My parents, although very educated in our home country never paid for school and…

> I was ranked 10th in a graduating class of 900 students and did well on the SATs except for the English section. Being born one or two standard deviations away from median on the intelligence scale is a whole lot of luck and privilege. > The problem is not money, but culture. Privilege has _nothing_ to do with it since tons of people in much much poorer countries with schools that have a lot fewer funds do a lot be…

> ...is a whole lot of luck and privilege.

I really dislike the language of privilege in this context. I'm not sure what point it serves other to diminish someone else. Some people are smart. That's as much a part of them as their skin color or sexual identity. Should they feel apologetic about that?

Also, as a counterpoint, I know brilliant people who wasted that talent on drugs and other things.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#106

Post by rainbowmverse » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 12:07 PM UTC

humanrebar wrote: post #101

jimnotgym wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who says his parents were not lucky too? No offense intended to OP, but they could have been two rich dropouts who lived their lives in a squat, lapsed into drug addiction and then found one of their estranged parents had died and left them $10m. The myth that rich people are rich because they worked hard is just that, a myth. The myth that a family is rich because generations worked hard is just ignorant. Please ref…

"A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in." You might be right, but we need to honor people for taking care of the next generation by working hard, being clever, and making good decisions. And aristocracy aside, people who were "privileged" are generally children of people who make good decisions, take care of their kids, and typically love them. To act like that is…

How is being born to those parents not luck? I had to learn self-control, personal finance, investment, entrepreneurship, and so on by myself because no one taught me. I learned it very, very late and it's likely set me back decades.

I had to be exposed to people who knew these things, and who were willing to teach me despite my upbringing. The fact that I'm where I am with growing savings, a small but growing music business, and confidence in my gender identity and sexuality is pure luck.

This all depended on my parents, despite their failings, seeing that computers were going to be a big deal. No matter how bad things got, I always had a computer and an internet connection. If not for meeting the right people at the right times (all online), I'd have ended up in a loveless marriage, an ongoing slide toward abject poverty, and confusion about who I am like everyone else around here.

Now I know luck is mostly about preparation, but no one teaches you preparation around here. We're all about learned helplessness in these parts.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#107

Post by humanrebar » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 12:07 PM UTC

jimnotgym wrote: post #100

For anyone who wants to investigate the connection between poverty and society further, I can highly recommend, Rutger Bregman's book 'Utopia for realists'. It is funny to see cases in history where well researched,cost effective and progressive social programs have been stopped due to plain prejudice from those in power. I keep hearing Ayn Rand mentioned these days. Reading those long tedious books can give you fodd…

I'll also recommend Hillbilly Elegy (more narrative and focuses on modern rural poverty in America) and Coming Apart (a bit more data driven and explanatory) on this subject.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#108

Post by foldr » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 12:13 PM UTC

slackingoff2017 wrote: post #85

jimmies wrote: post #2

Regarding blaming each other for their misfortune, I have an anecdotal experience I want to share. I don't know if that's just me or this phenomenal happens to everyone else as well: That's the "fuck you/who cares/deal with it" attitude. The "fuck you" attitude can be summarized as people won't go the extra mile to help other people. It is the non-sympathy, non-action I get from everyday people (including the police)…

You may want to consider a move to a happier place, the Midwest is not doing well these days. I moved from an economically depressed city in the midwest to a southern tech boomtown a few years ago and the difference in mood is striking. Everyone is new here, everyone is making good money. Remember how it was right before the housing crisis or before the dotcom bubble burst? That's how it feels here. The Midwest is me…

>everyone is making good money

For some highly restrictive definition of "everyone". I think this statement kind of exemplifies the problem.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#109

Post by shaftoe » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 12:16 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #92

slavik81 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What isn't luck? I only am who I am today because of a combination of nature and nurture. My genes and my environment defined who I am. I had no control over either of those things. I mean, if I was born on Steve Job's birthday, with Steve Job's genes, to Steve Job's parents, presumably I would be Steve Jobs. From that perspective, it's pure luck I'm not a billionaire. And, similarly, pure luck that I'm not literally…

> What isn't luck? Bingo!

This is fatalism and societies that adopt this attitude fall into some nasty traps. For example, there's no point to solving problems because it's the will of God.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#110

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 12:18 PM UTC

hal9000xp wrote: post #71

As a person who was extremely poor by western standards (in 2002, I earned 10 USD per month in Uzbekistan) and who lived among poor people for 22 years, I can say that poverty is a personal choice, period. Here is my answer on Quora with more details: https://www.quora.com/Are-poor-people-lazy/answer/Eldar-Gayn... I copy this answer here: I born in Uzbekistan in relatively poor family. At age of 18 (2002 year), I sta…

[deleted]