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Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

nytimes.com

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Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#121

Post by Banthum »

and0 wrote: post #55
princetontiger wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dude.... We (the West) wrote the Japanese and Korean constitution. Read a book. Without US soldiers in those countries, they wouldn't be where they are today. US = Japan Germany's Weimer constitution formed the basis for Korea's

You're right about the Japanese constitution being written by the Allies. Without Allies defeating Japan, though, they'd have taken over large parts of Asia and could very well be more prosperous / free than they are now. I don't think Imperial Japan was any less economically free than Gilded Age Europe, but I'd have to look it up. I'm curious how various atrocities committed by Anglo-Saxon nations fit into your worl…

You're implicitly comparing western cultures to an imaginary perfect culture, or to modern free (Western) countries. This is not reasonable.

You should compare cultures that share similar options: those living around the same time in geographically similar regions.

>I feel like most people act pretty much the same way and organize themselves in the same way, when prosperity permits.

Saudi Arabia vs Canada today.

Japan 1937 vs Israel today.

Britain 1939 vs Germany 1939.

The only reason you don't care about Anglo Saxon culture is because you're fully immersed in it and always have been. You think that Western cultural norms are actually universal human nature. They're not. They're a quirky weird aberration held by 15% of humanity and falling.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#122

Post by platinumrad »

vacri wrote: post #116
platinumrad wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The House of Lords is an absolute mess of an institution but at least they can't actually pass or prevent the passage of legislation. Their powers are limited to amending bills, making recommendations, and delaying legislation.

That's some serious hair-splitting. "They don't set rules, they just amend bills"...

It's a very limited form of amending (they can't touch money bills for example) and the House of Commons can always get its way in the end as amendments can eaisly be rejected by the "lower" house.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#123

Post by bilbo0s »

laretluval wrote: post #120
cilea wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same is happening to Taiwan (stuttered growth; in-fighting, etc.). The issue is deeply rooted in local power-wielding elites conspiring or opposing the ruling government. It has nothing to do democracy. The riches have already allocated some of their wealth elsewhere (see Canada and Australia), so they don't really care. It's always easy to blame it on Beijing, isn't it?

> The issue is deeply rooted in local power-wielding elites conspiring or opposing the ruling government. It has nothing to do democracy. Seems like democracy would make this problem worse, since it redistributes power to local informal power elites.

Taiwan is a "democracy", just a deeply corrupt one.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#124

Post by uiri »

sho wrote: post #72
WillPostForFood wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You probably meet some people who happen to believe that. I highly doubt anyone in China now believe that did not happen, let alone those who live in Bay area. Why does the government go to such extreme lengths to suppress the information then? More people than you admit don't believe or admit it happens. The government is playing a long game here, as the younger you are the less likely you are to have had access to…

In my experience anyone who wants to be politically enlightened in China can be. There's simply no plugging every single hole in the great firewall, or stopping verbal exchange of knowledge. The june fourth incident, as they call it, is very well known and every year on that day there's a flurry of awareness activism, swiftly (but not really punitively) repressed. In my opinion it will actually get better in time. Th…

Kent State, Dresden and dronings are well-known, if not in the US, then in Canada (where I'm from). The first one is mainly from the protest song by Neil Young which may be played more often here due to Canadian content requirements.

Of course, Canada has its own sordid moments in history... Residential schools, Oka & Ipperwash crises, Japanese internment during WW2.

I think the Chinese government may play a role in strategically choosing only the most extreme and nationalistic individuals as eligible emigrants. This will skew the perspective of Americans who don't leave their country. Chinese student-spies on American University campuses is a well documented phenomenon [0].

[0] https://nytimes.com/2017/05/04/us/chinese-students-western-c...

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#125

Post by thaumasiotes »

throwawayasdf wrote: post #62
princetontiger wrote: post #35

I love both these comments. China doesn't have private ownership. it's still communist, right?

It's funny to see the obviously pro-CCCP replies to you here. It demonstrates my point exactly. No, you don't have ownership. You only rent the land for 70 years, after which it returns to the government. You can 'sell your property' to somone else, at which point the 70-year lease on the land is reset for them to 0.

No, the timing of the lease doesn't reset.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#126

Post by s73ver »

muninn_ wrote: post #10
pjc50 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> at least they don't have unelected politicians setting rules I have some bad news for you about the House of Lords.

Yes. But that's a far cry from somebody in Brussels creating laws and policies.

You mean the European Parliament? The body to whom British citizens did in fact elect members to?

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#127

Post by kobeya »

laretluval wrote: post #120
cilea wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same is happening to Taiwan (stuttered growth; in-fighting, etc.). The issue is deeply rooted in local power-wielding elites conspiring or opposing the ruling government. It has nothing to do democracy. The riches have already allocated some of their wealth elsewhere (see Canada and Australia), so they don't really care. It's always easy to blame it on Beijing, isn't it?

> The issue is deeply rooted in local power-wielding elites conspiring or opposing the ruling government. It has nothing to do democracy. Seems like democracy would make this problem worse, since it redistributes power to local informal power elites.

Taiwan is a democracy, and has been for some time. Not sure what you're saying here?

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#128

Post by AnimalMuppet »

Gravityloss wrote: post #118
Analemma_ wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mentioned this in the last thread about Hong Kong, but they're not as dumb as you think. Taiwan (both the Blue and Green coalitions) has always distrusted "one country, two systems", even way back in the 90s before Hong Kong's autonomy started getting salami-sliced away. China knows that, and knows they're not really losing anything by abandoning that approach. That's not their plan anyway. The parallel tracks for…

But maybe the better question is, why? The people of Taiwan for the most part don't want to be a part of China, and Taiwan doesn't pose a military threat to China.

Face?

Also, having that island under China's control would be militarily useful in any showdown with the US - it pushes US forces farther from the mainland.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#129

Post by warcher »

caretoomuch wrote: post #79
warcher wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you agree that the deliberate limits on participatory democracy imposed by Beijing are limiting the ability of the non-elite factions in society to redress these imbalances, or do you think, even with universal suffrage, the citizens of Hong Kong are too fractured to come up with solutions? (Similar to the current political climate in the US.)

> the deliberate limits on participatory democracy imposed by Beijing are limiting the ability of the non-elite factions to redress these imbalances I agree all of it until "to redress these imbalances", i.e. letting the local elite rule Hong Kong was a deliberate decision by Beijing. Back then (before/during the hand-over to China), nobody knew how it's gonna work. And as of now, that decision turned out to be a fai…

I dunno, generally the best argument for democracy is when things come out of balance, there is a mechanism to adjust how things work without violent revolution (which generally necessitates a greater level of destruction than is advisable). Since the general impression of Hong Kong democracy is "yeah, we'll let you vote, but the party is going to have the last word" it's hard to imagine a scenario whereby the status quo (i.e. current elites) will ever be allowed to be threatened.

Well, until it's too late, and the torches and pitchforks come out.

Am I wrong?

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#130

Post by unityByFreedom »

> The real reason for Hong Kong's decline, is the failure/irresponsibility of Hong Kong's elite ruling class

Sounds like a narrative that Beijing would very much support, Mr. New Account.

Get people to hate their local govt and appeal to a higher authority for support. Brilliant.

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