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Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

nytimes.com

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Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#91

Post by eveningcoffee »

muninn_ wrote: post #36
eveningcoffee wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but at least they don't have unelected politicians setting rules I guess you are referring to the European Commission that is an executive branch of the EU institutions i.e. a government. Guess what - in most cases people have no control over who becomes a member of the government - in best case they can vote for a person who becomes a leader of the government (say president in US). In that regard the selection of…

And here we go already.... > in most cases people have no control over who becomes a member of the government in best case they can vote for a person who becomes a leader of the government Uh, do you not support democracy? Because how else do you have a democracy except to vote for elected representatives, and you have DIRECT control of doing so through voting? I'm not really anti-EU. I don't much care, whatever keep…

>Uh, do you not support democracy? Because how else do you have a democracy except to vote for elected representatives, and you have DIRECT control of doing so through voting?

In some countries you vote to a candidate to a position but in many countries that still call them democratic you can not.

For example you could vote for a candidate into the parliament but the actual members of the parliament are selected based on a formula that sets higher preference for the candidates more upward in the voting list.

Another example. You vote for a candidate but this candidate also belongs to the party X and when this party gets majority in the parliament, the leader of this party gets appointed (by president (possibly elected by previous parliament) king/queen) to form a government. Members of such government are commonly not voted by electorate but are selected by the leader of the government or by some other agreements. So you definitely can not have direct control over selection of members into the government.

In most dramatic case the leader of the party can step down and another one out of the blue gets the change to play the lead of the state to advance her agenda.

>I'm not really anti-EU. I don't much care, whatever keeps that continent from boiling over in war

And UK just increased the change to get into the war with continental Europe or part of it.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#92

Post by cilea »

caretoomuch wrote: post #41

As someone lived in Hong Kong for quite a while (during the tail of its heydays) but now in the US, Hong Kong is indeed in big trouble. But not for the reasons mentioned/implied in this article. It's very easy to buy into narratives such as authoritarianism vs democracy, communism vs capitalism, China vs Britain/West, tight control vs freedom as the reasons for Hong Kong's decline, but that's just short-circuited thi…

The same is happening to Taiwan (stuttered growth; in-fighting, etc.). The issue is deeply rooted in local power-wielding elites conspiring or opposing the ruling government. It has nothing to do democracy. The riches have already allocated some of their wealth elsewhere (see Canada and Australia), so they don't really care. It's always easy to blame it on Beijing, isn't it?

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#93

Post by sirkneeland »

pjc50 wrote: post #47
nailer wrote: post #27

There's a lot to be gloomy about but HK is also really inspirational. At a time when a lot of young people in the west are railing against democracy, free speech, and other laws that support their freedom, HK has 20 year olds pushing China to deliver the democracy they promised before 1997.

> a lot of young people in the west are railing against democracy, free speech, and other laws that support their freedom [citation needed]

Not "railing against" to be fair to your original point but this study (FiveThirtyEight thinks it's sound) says millennials value democracy far less than their predecessors.

As a % of people who think it is "essential" to live in a democracy:

Born in 1930s - 75% millennials - 30% https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/democracy-meh/

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#94

Post by sirkneeland »

abiox wrote: post #68
princetontiger wrote: post #31

They kicked out the British, why do they want them back? lol

afaik, british control derived from a land lease. the lease ended per the time table in the lease. as such nobody was 'kicked out'.

The British had wanted to continue their period of rule in Hong Kong as the expiration date neared. It was a subject of negotiation between China and the UK in the 1980s. They wanted British rule or even some kind of joint administration. Even Thatcher (hardly a shrinking violet when it came to using force to get her way) couldn't get a deal to continue British rule in Hong Kong. China made it perfectly clear that the British would be leaving in 1997.

And so, for better or for worse, they came to an agreement in the Sino-British Joint Declaration. The British were essentially "consensually kicked out" (as the Brits might say, "mustn't make a fuss" ;) )

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#95

Post by dragonwriter »

sirkneeland wrote: post #93
pjc50 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a lot of young people in the west are railing against democracy, free speech, and other laws that support their freedom [citation needed]

Not "railing against" to be fair to your original point but this study (FiveThirtyEight thinks it's sound) says millennials value democracy far less than their predecessors. As a % of people who think it is "essential" to live in a democracy: Born in 1930s - 75% millennials - 30% https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/democracy-meh/

The question is this just age (I've seen qualitatively similar things periodically about young vs. old people off and on for decades) or if it's a shift over time in attitudes of young people.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#96

Post by vkou »

tuna-piano wrote: post #3

Some questions I'm thinking of in regards to this situation: -Who in the world does not agree that self-determination is good? -Britain seems to be standing up for Hong only lightly. Will they ever carry a bigger stick?[1] -What is the difference between Hong Kong/China relationship and the often criticized West Bank/Israel relationship? -Would the former colonies in Africa and Asia be in better hands if they were st…

>-Who in the world does not agree that self-determination is good?

Governments of countries with secessionist movements. So, the United States, the United Kingdom, Spain, Russia, Ukraine, China, the list goes on.

A few of them fought bloody civil wars over the question of self-determination, both in the distant, and not-so-distant past.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#97

Post by mrighele »

sirkneeland wrote: post #93
pjc50 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a lot of young people in the west are railing against democracy, free speech, and other laws that support their freedom [citation needed]

Not "railing against" to be fair to your original point but this study (FiveThirtyEight thinks it's sound) says millennials value democracy far less than their predecessors. As a % of people who think it is "essential" to live in a democracy: Born in 1930s - 75% millennials - 30% https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/democracy-meh/

Could it be that democracy that people born in the '30s experienced (or at least perceived) was different from the one experienced by millennials ?

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#98

Post by vkou »

throwawayasdf wrote: post #62
princetontiger wrote: post #35

I love both these comments. China doesn't have private ownership. it's still communist, right?

It's funny to see the obviously pro-CCCP replies to you here. It demonstrates my point exactly. No, you don't have ownership. You only rent the land for 70 years, after which it returns to the government. You can 'sell your property' to somone else, at which point the 70-year lease on the land is reset for them to 0.

Much of the land in Vancouver's west end is held under 100 year leases.

Strangely enough, people still buy and sell it, and live in it.

Perpetual ownership is not the only valid model of land ownership.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#99

Post by lisper »

cilea wrote: post #92
caretoomuch wrote: post #41

As someone lived in Hong Kong for quite a while (during the tail of its heydays) but now in the US, Hong Kong is indeed in big trouble. But not for the reasons mentioned/implied in this article. It's very easy to buy into narratives such as authoritarianism vs democracy, communism vs capitalism, China vs Britain/West, tight control vs freedom as the reasons for Hong Kong's decline, but that's just short-circuited thi…

The same is happening to Taiwan (stuttered growth; in-fighting, etc.). The issue is deeply rooted in local power-wielding elites conspiring or opposing the ruling government. It has nothing to do democracy. The riches have already allocated some of their wealth elsewhere (see Canada and Australia), so they don't really care. It's always easy to blame it on Beijing, isn't it?

And, arguably, in the U.S.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#100

Post by Taniwha »

RangerScience wrote: post #25
j9461701 wrote: post #21

I think it should be pointed out that Hong Kong never had democracy. The British ruled the country with the same iron fist the Chinese do, and indeed many of the laws currently being used against the Hong Kong citizenry originated with them. The difference really does come down to the fact that the British, although authoritarian, ran a relatively clean ship. Meanwhile Beijing's government has been corrupt, nepotisti…

Not to doubt you - but, what's your source? (You sound correct, but I don't know how to verify what you're saying).

Have a look at Wikipedia - especially 1991 (and before)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_constituency_(Hong_...

where else do you get the equivalent of two senate seat for the chamber of commerce, another for manufacturer's sassociation, a third for the construction industry, a fourth for the banks ..... but none elected at large by the populace

even today only half the council is elected at large

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