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Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

nytimes.com

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Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#11

Post by platinumrad »

pjc50 wrote: post #7
muninn_ wrote: post #5

1) Many people. Look at Brexit. You can argue until your face turns blue that it's bad for Britain, it most likely is, but at least they don't have unelected politicians setting rules. It's pro-self-determination no matter how you look at it. 2) Why should Britain stand up for Hong Kong? They're imperialists while they hold on to it, and then cowards when they give it back to China and say? 3) Almost invariable yes.…

> at least they don't have unelected politicians setting rules I have some bad news for you about the House of Lords.

The House of Lords is an absolute mess of an institution but at least they can't actually pass or prevent the passage of legislation. Their powers are limited to amending bills, making recommendations, and delaying legislation.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#12

Post by mankash666 »

throwawayasdf wrote: post #2

of course it's in trouble. There's 1.3 billion brain-washed citizens, many of whom are working here in the bay, who believe: 1) taiwan is a part of china 2) tiannamen square didn't happen 3) the CCP is ok how can they study here for grad school, want to stay for h1-b and get the green card, have extreme nationalism for their officially communist government, yet happily participate in the fruits of capitalism and west…

The ones I've met are fairly critical of their government and know about Tienanmen. Yours is one anecdote, as is mine. Only a study can give concrete conclusions, but since the nature of life in the US is in direct contrast to that in China, I doubt they're unreasonably supportive of a authoritarian government in China

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#13

Post by caretoomuch »

throwawayasdf wrote: post #2

of course it's in trouble. There's 1.3 billion brain-washed citizens, many of whom are working here in the bay, who believe: 1) taiwan is a part of china 2) tiannamen square didn't happen 3) the CCP is ok how can they study here for grad school, want to stay for h1-b and get the green card, have extreme nationalism for their officially communist government, yet happily participate in the fruits of capitalism and west…

Let's just assume all what you alleged is true. Then what do you suggest we do with "the Chinese" or at least "Chinese like that" in the US/West/Wherever-you-are-referring-to?

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#14

Post by jasonjei »

throwawayasdf wrote: post #8
tuna-piano wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't seem to find any studies on Chines-American or Chinese-in-the-US views on the Chinese government, but my anecdotal experiences are different than yours. I find a more typical view of, "It's a difficult situation, and there's not much we can do about it" and not "The Communist party is the best and democracy is terrible". And on the spectrum of Complete Communism->Complete Capitalism (no country is completely…

Dude, they love their government with extreme pride. You're probably talking to them as an obvious American, and they are backing down and downplaying it to hide it, because they know it's your home turf and they'd rather not get in a fight with a 'Murica-dude over it. Try talking to them as another asian or foreigner. You will see their nationalism come out. If you don't believe me, ask your non-American non-Chinese…

Most of them that have moved to America exhibit China as a "difficult" situation. Speaking to them as someone of Chinese ethnicity (I was born in Phoenix with parents from Taiwan and I also spent time in Taiwan), I don't think they believe China is great. Many are leaving because the air is bad, some believe a bubble is going to burst, etc.

I mean, that's some serious cognitive dissonance if they're living in America yet exhibit hyperpatriotic attitudes.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#15

Post by Terr_ »

throwawayasdf wrote: post #2

of course it's in trouble. There's 1.3 billion brain-washed citizens, many of whom are working here in the bay, who believe: 1) taiwan is a part of china 2) tiannamen square didn't happen 3) the CCP is ok how can they study here for grad school, want to stay for h1-b and get the green card, have extreme nationalism for their officially communist government, yet happily participate in the fruits of capitalism and west…

The problem with your first item is that Taiwan's political orthodoxy ALSO says its part of China... the disagreement is about which government is the legitimate ruler of both zones.

I personally believe Taiwan is a separate country be every objective measure, but the current mess isn't just the PRCs making, past and present Taiwanese politicians deserve some blame here too.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#16

Post by microcolonel »

platinumrad wrote: post #6
tuna-piano wrote: post #3

Some questions I'm thinking of in regards to this situation: -Who in the world does not agree that self-determination is good? -Britain seems to be standing up for Hong only lightly. Will they ever carry a bigger stick?[1] -What is the difference between Hong Kong/China relationship and the often criticized West Bank/Israel relationship? -Would the former colonies in Africa and Asia be in better hands if they were st…

>What is the difference between Hong Kong/China relationship and the often criticized West Bank/Israel relationship? ????? Hong Kong is wealthy, developed, and cosmopolitan and the West Bank/Gaza are not?? Israel and Palestine share the same landmass and China and Britain do not?? Israel is the most powerful nation in the Middle East and Britian is not the most powerful nation in East Asia--in fact it's a nation in W…

Hong Kong was not wealthy, developed, or cosmopolitan to begin with. At the outset of the colonization the mean income was 1/3 that of Britain, a few decades later it was 4/3 that of Britain.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#17

Post by holydude »

Ofc China does not want HK to be free. China found out how to get "rich" without losing control. They want exactly the opposite of what makes HK HK. It's just sad that many strong economies feel like they need / want the growth based on chinese consumption and trade and are feeding this undemocratic behemoth.

What is scary is that China is actively promoting expansion by resettling ethnic han chinese.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#18

Post by yongjik »

muninn_ wrote: post #5

1) Many people. Look at Brexit. You can argue until your face turns blue that it's bad for Britain, it most likely is, but at least they don't have unelected politicians setting rules. It's pro-self-determination no matter how you look at it. 2) Why should Britain stand up for Hong Kong? They're imperialists while they hold on to it, and then cowards when they give it back to China and say? 3) Almost invariable yes.…

I love how you say Africans would have been better under benevolent European rule and also say Brits should free themselves from European rule (however good it is), in a single comment.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#19

Post by platinumrad »

tuna-piano wrote: post #9
platinumrad wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What is the difference between Hong Kong/China relationship and the often criticized West Bank/Israel relationship? ????? Hong Kong is wealthy, developed, and cosmopolitan and the West Bank/Gaza are not?? Israel and Palestine share the same landmass and China and Britain do not?? Israel is the most powerful nation in the Middle East and Britian is not the most powerful nation in East Asia--in fact it's a nation in W…

I was trying to compare the political situation, not quality of life, which as you mention is vastly different. My comparison is more that: -China controls Hong Kong with only limited local say in the government. Israel also controls the West Bank, with limited Palestinian Authority control of certain matters. -Hong Kong can't have a military or conduct foreign affairs and isn't internationally recognized (same as We…

You're choosing to focus on superficial similarities (checkpoints!) and completely ignoring the wildly different contexts that Hong Kong and the West Bank, a place that I was standing in literally one week ago, exist in.

-Political relations are a function of wealth. If Palestine were a wealthy and economically developed nation with a large number of international connections do you think their relationship with Israel would be quite the same?

-Do you think not having a military/international recognition is the same for a faux city-state and for an occupied territory??

-Have you considered how living in a shithole and being denied economic opportunity due to not being able to travel freely might be just a tiny bit different from being mildly inconvenienced when leaving the financial capital of Asia for a developing country (yes, mainland China is very much a developing country) with a fifth of your GDP/capita?

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#20

Post by throwawayasdf »

caretoomuch wrote: post #13
throwawayasdf wrote: post #2

of course it's in trouble. There's 1.3 billion brain-washed citizens, many of whom are working here in the bay, who believe: 1) taiwan is a part of china 2) tiannamen square didn't happen 3) the CCP is ok how can they study here for grad school, want to stay for h1-b and get the green card, have extreme nationalism for their officially communist government, yet happily participate in the fruits of capitalism and west…

Let's just assume all what you alleged is true. Then what do you suggest we do with "the Chinese" or at least "Chinese like that" in the US/West/Wherever-you-are-referring-to?

I suspect that their degree of extreme nationlism is inversely related to the amount of time and # of family members who are here.

That's why a few other members say their anecdotal evidence hasn't seen that much extreme pride - I suspect the people they are talking about have spent 5-10 years here at least, and arrived here in the late 90's-early 2000's when China was still weak and not as rich.

Try talking to new grads and mid-late 20's who are here, who arrived here when China became rich. They are very very prideful. You won't see it if you're an obvious American dude; they will not show their colors.

Obviously you do not encourage westernization by blocking them off. The US strategy is probably to encourage them to be here to gradually acclimate them to western liberalism over time, where they can go back eventually as the ruling elite and gradually shift attitudes in their country.

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