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Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

nytimes.com

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Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#51

Post by logfromblammo »

muninn_ wrote: post #29
yongjik wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love how you say Africans would have been better under benevolent European rule and also say Brits should free themselves from European rule (however good it is), in a single comment.

Well, I'm looking at things how they currently are in 2017. I support self-determination of Africans (and subsequently all people), but that doesn't mean they wouldn't be better off right now under British rule. The British (and others, like the Dutch) never should have colonized Africa (or anywhere else), but they did. Likewise, I can acknowledge that the British are probably worse-off for leaving the EU, but also s…

How does that old faxlore go?

  Heaven:
   British cops
   German mechanics
   French chefs
   Italian lovers
   Swiss administrators
  
  Hell:
   German cops
   French mechanics
   British chefs
   Swiss lovers
   Italian administrators
Some nation-tribes are better at governance than others. Their countries might be objectively better if they were administered by another nation-tribe, but then it wouldn't be their country.

Rhodesia was certainly a better international trading partner than Zimbabwe is now, but at least Zimbabwe is unequivocally owned by the Zimbabweans. Other countries don't exist solely for the benefit of their international trade partners.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#52

Post by yongjik »

princetontiger wrote: post #45
and0 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No: - Britain's own level of freedom doesn't reflect how they've treated colonies in the past. See: all of history. - The UK isn't as free as many other Western nations. See: their track record on surveillance (although everyone is catching up there), or even Theresa May literally saying "I’ll rip up human rights laws that impede new terror legislation" quite recently. - Founding documents rarely mean anything when i…

Dude.... We (the West) wrote the Japanese and Korean constitution. Read a book. Without US soldiers in those countries, they wouldn't be where they are today. US = Japan Germany's Weimer constitution formed the basis for Korea's

Unless you are one of the 200 lawmakers elected in May 1948 to write the first constitution of Republic of Korea, no, you didn't write Korea's constitution.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#53

Post by WillPostForFood »

justicezyx wrote: post #39
throwawayasdf wrote: post #2

of course it's in trouble. There's 1.3 billion brain-washed citizens, many of whom are working here in the bay, who believe: 1) taiwan is a part of china 2) tiannamen square didn't happen 3) the CCP is ok how can they study here for grad school, want to stay for h1-b and get the green card, have extreme nationalism for their officially communist government, yet happily participate in the fruits of capitalism and west…

Disclaimer, from mainland China, knows people live in US from Hong Kong. > There's 1.3 billion brain-washed citizens Brain-wash is a strong word. Chines people are not like some another-dimensional like minions. They think and behave reasonably and just like any other one on this planet. Please refrain from using strong word without actual evidence. > taiwan is a part of china History shows that Taiwan was forcefully…

You probably meet some people who happen to believe that. I highly doubt anyone in China now believe that did not happen, let alone those who live in Bay area.

Why does the government go to such extreme lengths to suppress the information then? More people than you admit don't believe or admit it happens. The government is playing a long game here, as the younger you are the less likely you are to have had access to the information, and it gets worse over time.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#54

Post by [deleted] »

justicezyx wrote: post #39
throwawayasdf wrote: post #2

of course it's in trouble. There's 1.3 billion brain-washed citizens, many of whom are working here in the bay, who believe: 1) taiwan is a part of china 2) tiannamen square didn't happen 3) the CCP is ok how can they study here for grad school, want to stay for h1-b and get the green card, have extreme nationalism for their officially communist government, yet happily participate in the fruits of capitalism and west…

Disclaimer, from mainland China, knows people live in US from Hong Kong. > There's 1.3 billion brain-washed citizens Brain-wash is a strong word. Chines people are not like some another-dimensional like minions. They think and behave reasonably and just like any other one on this planet. Please refrain from using strong word without actual evidence. > taiwan is a part of china History shows that Taiwan was forcefully…

[deleted]

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#55

Post by and0 »

princetontiger wrote: post #45
and0 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No: - Britain's own level of freedom doesn't reflect how they've treated colonies in the past. See: all of history. - The UK isn't as free as many other Western nations. See: their track record on surveillance (although everyone is catching up there), or even Theresa May literally saying "I’ll rip up human rights laws that impede new terror legislation" quite recently. - Founding documents rarely mean anything when i…

Dude.... We (the West) wrote the Japanese and Korean constitution. Read a book. Without US soldiers in those countries, they wouldn't be where they are today. US = Japan Germany's Weimer constitution formed the basis for Korea's

You're right about the Japanese constitution being written by the Allies. Without Allies defeating Japan, though, they'd have taken over large parts of Asia and could very well be more prosperous / free than they are now. I don't think Imperial Japan was any less economically free than Gilded Age Europe, but I'd have to look it up.

I'm curious how various atrocities committed by Anglo-Saxon nations fit into your world view where they are the most free and just. Britain brutally colonized and oppressed many other countries and cultures such as India, large parts of Africa, and even America. Do their colonies not count? America and Great Britain had slavery for generations. Germany, who wrote the constitution you just referenced (despite them not exactly being Anglo-Saxon? I'm not sure) did that whole Holocaust thing 15 years after it was written, not sure if you've ever read about that in your books.

You seem really set on Anglo-Saxonism being the superior culture and model for the rest of the world. That's really creepy, since there isn't much terribly unique to that culture except whiteness? I'm white and I don't feel any real connection to the people who wrote The Magna Carta versus Marx or Eastern philosophers. I feel like most people act pretty much the same way and organize themselves in the same way, when prosperity permits. Ideology seems to flow pretty freely, and Democracy was invented thousands of years ago.

Again, it seems to me that freedom has more to do with prosperity and prosperity has more to do with war and domination of other nations. Anglo-Saxon nations frequently interfere with Eastern freedoms for economic gains, see the aforementioned CIA coup in Iran or the Opium Wars in China. I can point to a lot more instances of the West outright crushing the freedoms of other cultures / nations than helping.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#56

Post by xiaoma »

Terr_ wrote: post #15
throwawayasdf wrote: post #2

of course it's in trouble. There's 1.3 billion brain-washed citizens, many of whom are working here in the bay, who believe: 1) taiwan is a part of china 2) tiannamen square didn't happen 3) the CCP is ok how can they study here for grad school, want to stay for h1-b and get the green card, have extreme nationalism for their officially communist government, yet happily participate in the fruits of capitalism and west…

The problem with your first item is that Taiwan's political orthodoxy ALSO says its part of China... the disagreement is about which government is the legitimate ruler of both zones. I personally believe Taiwan is a separate country be every objective measure, but the current mess isn't just the PRCs making, past and present Taiwanese politicians deserve some blame here too.

Unless by "political orthodoxy", you mean the KMT military dictatorship in power before Taiwan became a democracy, your comment is simply false. You will not find any elected politician on the island claiming that Taiwan is a part of China.

The political views of the mainland soldiers who invaded Taiwan during the 50s and the views of the people of Taiwan who were at their mercy weren't the same, even when dictatorship made it impossible to speak freely. Many had to acquiesce to the system to get by and some did for decades. A prime example would be the first Taiwanese native to succeed in the KMT. After decades of doing the party's bidding, he made it to the very top and destroyed the dictatorship from the inside by allowing opposing parties to form, participate in elections and ultimately win.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#57

Post by vitaminbandit »

princetontiger wrote: post #33

Britain is the genesis of freedom. Go read the Magna Carta. Other Western European countries also spread fantastic ideals. Non-Western countries have ZERO freedoms, and people are crawling over themselves to move to the West. DESPITE, these "colonial powers" leaving 40-50 years ago, those populations want to move to Europe, the US, Australia/NZ, and Canada.

You heard it here first, non-Westeners. ZERO

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#58

Post by tuna-piano »

platinumrad wrote: post #19
tuna-piano wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was trying to compare the political situation, not quality of life, which as you mention is vastly different. My comparison is more that: -China controls Hong Kong with only limited local say in the government. Israel also controls the West Bank, with limited Palestinian Authority control of certain matters. -Hong Kong can't have a military or conduct foreign affairs and isn't internationally recognized (same as We…

You're choosing to focus on superficial similarities (checkpoints!) and completely ignoring the wildly different contexts that Hong Kong and the West Bank, a place that I was standing in literally one week ago, exist in. -Political relations are a function of wealth. If Palestine were a wealthy and economically developed nation with a large number of international connections do you think their relationship with Isra…

I think my main point/question is really what is the concrete systematic difference between a "faux state" (as you refer to Hong Kong) and an occupied territory?

Of course your points about the economic differences are correct. But are you saying that you agree that the current political situations aren't that different, that it's just the economic situation that's different?

And wow, as you mention, the Hong Kong/China GDP Per capita difference is approximately 5x. Israelis have 12x the Palestinian GDP Per capita[1].

[1] https://www.google.com/webhp?ie=UTF-8&rct=j#q=west+bank+gdp+...

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#59

Post by sho »

justicezyx wrote: post #43
princetontiger wrote: post #35

I love both these comments. China doesn't have private ownership. it's still communist, right?

If "no private ownership" = communism, then correct, China is communism country. But as defined in the textbook, communism also requires highly-developed society, where citizens not work for their living, but for their aspiration, and the society provides the consumables for people's living. And many other necessary conditions to be called communism. Even for private ownership. If I bought a house in US, do I have an…

FFS. China has private ownership of property encoded in its constitution. What are you even talking about? Very frustrating to watch these energetic discussions with strongly-held views based on pure nonsense.

It's 2017 guys. You have a whole internet of information at your fingertips. Use it, please!

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#60

Post by Lordarminius »

princetontiger wrote: post #48

I agree completely. In European/Anglo countries, the ruling elite give back. Check out Grand Central, Rockefeller Center, the large parks and gardens throughout the great countries of the world. The ruling elite in Asia don't care about others.

The elite in Asia give back. They just don't give back parks and gardens.
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