“Let her speak please” • Hacker News Board

Re: “Let her speak please”

#361

Post by jancsika » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 3:58 PM UTC

jccalhoun wrote: post #250

jancsika wrote: post #167

I remember a sociologist once remarking that prejudice (racism in the case we were discussing) exists quite apart from an individual's intentions. Most of the comments here appear to assume that prejudice is determined solely (or mainly) by the moderator's intentions-- hence the endless quests to somehow prove what is or isn't lurking in the moderator's soul. That seems irrelevant in this case, but I haven't read the…

I''m not a sociologist. My phd minor was Anthro and I don't have any citations handy. But basically you can never know someone's intention with 100% certainty. There is always the possibility that someone has different intentions than you think they are or that they say they have. Even if it is someone you know very well and trust there is the possibility that you are in some sort of Truman Show where everyone you kn…

I shouldn't have put "citations" in parentheses. That's what I'm most interested in-- recommended readings from people who study this stuff for a living.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#362

Post by weberc2 » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 3:58 PM UTC

sampo wrote: post #340

golemotron wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This might be the thing that is most problematic about 'call out' culture. We assume that we know the intention of people's behavior (sexism) and how it is received (offense). In many cases there may be neither. But I'm just cynical enough to suspect that this many not matter to people who 'call out.' They feel that they are on a mission to make society better regardless of whether there are problems in any individua…

> In many cases there may be neither. The story tells how the audience applauded to the "let her speak" comment, and how afterwards a large number of people came to thank her for the comment. So in this case it was a large number of people who perceived there being sexism.

Which isn't evidence of much; millions of people assumed Darren Wilson was a racist murderer even after the facts were known. There's a very strong temptation for some people to perceive injustice everywhere.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#363

Post by unicornporn » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 3:59 PM UTC

Facebook posts are more or less unreadable to me without a Facebook login. This is what it looks like to me: https://i.imgur.com/ZQNexgi.png

Does anybody else outside Facebook space find it annoying?

Re: “Let her speak please”

#364

Post by throwaway99951 » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 4:00 PM UTC

ssanders82 wrote: post #178

discombobulate wrote: post #159

I received a delivery from a black gentleman today. Whilst reaching out for the package I was concerned he may think I'm racist if I wasn't excessively nice to him. I think I may be uncomfortable around minorities for fear of being labelled a racist. I have a similar worry around women. I think becoming racist would solve my concerns -- at least in my own mind. However, it doesn't make any sense to do that: individua…

Jesus Christ. Here's a thought, treat them as people and not "a black" or "a woman". You don't have to ingratiate yourself in the fear that some random person will think you're a racist. He's just a person going about his day delivering packages. He's got his own worries and concerns and things going on in his mind. "Is becoming a racist the best solution, so I'm able to function more effectively?" I can't tell if yo…

>Here's a thought, treat them as people and not "a black" or "a woman". You don't have to ingratiate yourself in the fear that some random person will think you're a racist.

I think you need to read through this thread. People are assigning motivations to the host: "He is sexist". Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. I'm sure he'd say that he is not, but plenty of people here are saying he is. Is it crazy to think the same thing can happen to, say, the OP?

Re: “Let her speak please”

#365

Post by psyc » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 4:01 PM UTC

CPLX wrote: post #126

Quarrelsome wrote: post #35

he doesn't interrupt just her. His role is host, his role is to move the conversation about and yes he does fuck up by saying some stuff he should leave to her. However to me the evocative language used in the Facebook post suggests there is an aspect of deliberately seeking out "injustice" and being overly sensitive to it and seeing the world as a gender battle. If you're looking at the world through such a frame yo…

I tend to be sympathetic to the original poster of the story, it sounds like the woman was treated differently, and an expert being talked over like that by a host is ridiculous. It does indeed sound like an example of sexism. This probably marks me as an ignorant oppressor, but I do find this style of telling a story to be a bit confusing and off-putting though. Why all the references to "with my hands shaking" and…

You know, I think you might be on to something.

https://youtu.be/Ro1ROeKbZhM

My opinion, probably worth less than the time it takes to type it, is that the moderator was clearly being very clueless. Therefore I definitely would have wanted to holler "Let her speak please." I'd have been annoyed, and perhaps a little angry.

But sexism in this case is really a stretch. He didn't seem condescending, just excited, and clueless, with just a touch of jackass. As a man who gets talked over by everybody, all the time, I know that you have to be very assertive to get a word in when talking to these donkeys. I think it's much more likely that the woman simply didn't reach that assertiveness threshold.

Notice that "Let her speak please!" works perfectly well, without the leap to the conclusion of sexism that followed here.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#366

Post by jshevek » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 4:02 PM UTC

token_throwaway wrote: post #350

Ugh, I watched the video, jesus the host might be the least self-aware person who's ever been asked to host anything. I was unreasonably annoyed listening to him. Anyway I want to share something, made this throwaway account specifically for this. I'm the only female at my company, and a developer to boot. I'm assertive in general, I make sure I'm heard. In fact, I try to be hyper-aware of how much I'm talking in a m…

I'm grateful for your perspective and your values.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#367

Post by carapat_virulat » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 4:03 PM UTC

Houshalter wrote: post #315

I have a theory that women are less likely to be, I guess the word would be "assertive", than men. That is a stereotype, but sometimes there's truth in stereotypes. I mean I recall studies that women are less likely to ask for raises or are worse at haggling. So if a person is speaking over you and rambling on, perhaps a man is more likely to speak up or butt in at the first opportunity. The quote in the top comment…

Yes, women are in average higher in trait agreeableness[1][2]. This is well studied cross-culturally. There's still a huge overlap between men and women in most traits so it's not useful as a rule of thumb of how people as individuals.

It can explain average population outcomes like men on average haggling for better wages as you said.

It can also explain outlier outcome, for example the most disagreeable people are mostly men. This makes men more likely to end up in prison. Which doesn't mean that the average men is much more likely to end up in prison than the average woman. But the type of person who is more likely to end up in prison happen to be mostly men.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agreeableness [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3149680/

Re: “Let her speak please”

#368

Post by learc83 » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 4:05 PM UTC

chisleu wrote: post #231

birracerveza wrote: post #46

The exaggeration of this post is infuriating. I saw the video, and while I do agree that Jim Holt was especially rude in asking questions and then start talking as soon as she started answering, that is all it is. Rudeness. Not sexism. He did it with the men too.

He did it with the men, AND he had reason to believe she was nervous or otherwise less communicative because she had an hour where many theories she certainly has views on were discussed and barely chimed in. The moderator is a scientist with a clear understanding of the subject matters being discussed. I agree that it was a poor way to try to involve her, but the FB post is off the rails.

The moderator isn't a scientist, he's a science journalist. He appears to refer to himself as a philosopher, but I can't find anything about his credentials other than popular articles and books he's written.

Regardless of what exactly he is, he's not a scientist.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#369

Post by jlebar » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 4:06 PM UTC

Houshalter wrote: post #315

I have a theory that women are less likely to be, I guess the word would be "assertive", than men. That is a stereotype, but sometimes there's truth in stereotypes. I mean I recall studies that women are less likely to ask for raises or are worse at haggling. So if a person is speaking over you and rambling on, perhaps a man is more likely to speak up or butt in at the first opportunity. The quote in the top comment…

> I have a theory that women are less likely to be, I guess the word would be "assertive", than men.

If this has been your experience, I'd encourage you to consider why that might be the case.

Here's one possibility: Perhaps in our culture, assertive women are treated worse than assertive men.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#370

Post by weberc2 » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 4:06 PM UTC

okreallywtf wrote: post #228

FussyZeus wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't expect he set out that day to make the scientist shut up because she was a woman. A lot of sexism is so deeply rooted that it's not even hostile by the men who engage in it, it's simply the acting of the cultural norms, for example, that men can talk over women. I don't have a sexist bone in my body and I've caught myself doing this. The only way we improve as a society is to continuously monitor and correct…

TLDR Even if its not a purely sexist situation if women make up a significant percentage of the victims of this behavior I think it is OK to consider it in the context of women. Rape isn't entirely male on female, both male on male and female on male and female on female also occur but male on female rape is the most prevalent and therefore gets an appropriate proportional amount of attention. It doesn't mean thats t…

According to the national crime victimization survey, males account for more than 1/3 of reported rape victims, and males are known to underreport compared to females. It could easily be 50/50.