“Let her speak please” • Hacker News Board

Re: “Let her speak please”

#221

Post by randomguy23 » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 2:16 PM UTC

_lex wrote: post #180

novia wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you look at the full response though.. She is supportive of the woman in the audience who spoke up. Veronika Hubeny: I applaud your heroism in standing up for what you believe in! I know well the shaky feeling and subsequent exhilarated and heartwarmed contentment in the knowledge of having done the right thing, and I think that doing so has become more crucial than ever. Your behavior was inspiring and I’m glad…

I think it's worth considering that we're seeing some survivorship bias here - it's possible that she's the only woman on the panel because she thinks this way. In other words, it's possible that other women who would have seen this event as being rooted in sexism may eventually be a part of so many similar events during their career that they effectively burn out and switch to more female friendly fields. This has b…

If you wear sexism-colored glasses, don't be surprised if everything looks like sexism. That, I think, is what she's getting at. If you're always looking for a slight, always looking for a snide remark, you'll find it. Perception shapes reality.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#222

Post by golemotron » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 2:17 PM UTC

xor1 wrote: post #218

vog wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see any "'call out' culture" here. Note that the person in the audience did not say "you are sexist". The words were "Let her speak please". Specific, and to the point. (EDIT: The article itself uses the word "sexist", so it might indeed have been a call-out. However, that doesn't affect my point that we should not tolerate shitty behaviour, no matter which label is attached to it.) The moderator's behvaiour…

>I don't see any "'call out' culture" here. Note that the person in the audience did not say "you are sexist". The words were "Let her speak please". Specific, and to the point. The "call out" is the Facebook post and the subsequent social media firestorm that follows it.

Exactly. People have different levels of introversion and extroversion. Moderators sometimes over talk introverts when they feel they have to keep things moving. It may not have anything to do with sexism but because the the sexes of the participants it's turned into a conversation that may have no base in the reality of the situation.

It is arrogance to assume that we know the mind of another well enough to call this sexism.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#223

Post by wruza » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 2:18 PM UTC

oneoff_147 wrote: post #96

lawik wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you believe that it is as common? Do you believe that the person you are replying to doesn't believe that it ever happens? Does excluding a full disclaimer invalidate his thoughts about trying not to talk over women or dominating conversations? I don't believe it is always necessary to counter-exemplify what you experience as a general trend.

My personal experience, especially through family and to a lesser extent through other acquaintances, is of women dominating conversations and talking over men. I (a man) can't tell you how many times I've had a woman ask me a question and then talk over my answer, or repeatedly interrupt me when I try to participate in a conversation. And I see the same thing happening to other men I know. The men just kind of give…

>people dominating conversations rather than men dominating conversations

You're probably going to get "all lives matter"-alike reaction on this.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#224

Post by vog » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 2:20 PM UTC

golemotron wrote: post #222

xor1 wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't see any "'call out' culture" here. Note that the person in the audience did not say "you are sexist". The words were "Let her speak please". Specific, and to the point. The "call out" is the Facebook post and the subsequent social media firestorm that follows it.

Exactly. People have different levels of introversion and extroversion. Moderators sometimes over talk introverts when they feel they have to keep things moving. It may not have anything to do with sexism but because the the sexes of the participants it's turned into a conversation that may have no base in the reality of the situation. It is arrogance to assume that we know the mind of another well enough to call thi…

Thanks for the clarification. That's exactly the point I wanted to make.

But also note that the moderator called the person from the audience "heckling" just because she made him aware of his inappropriate behaviour. If not sexism, this is at least a clear sign of ignorance.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#225

Post by imron » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 2:20 PM UTC

_lex wrote: post #180

novia wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you look at the full response though.. She is supportive of the woman in the audience who spoke up. Veronika Hubeny: I applaud your heroism in standing up for what you believe in! I know well the shaky feeling and subsequent exhilarated and heartwarmed contentment in the knowledge of having done the right thing, and I think that doing so has become more crucial than ever. Your behavior was inspiring and I’m glad…

I think it's worth considering that we're seeing some survivorship bias here - it's possible that she's the only woman on the panel because she thinks this way. In other words, it's possible that other women who would have seen this event as being rooted in sexism may eventually be a part of so many similar events during their career that they effectively burn out and switch to more female friendly fields. This has b…

> I call it assuming positive intent. It's how you survive.

Assuming positive intent is generally a good way to live, and it makes life significantly less stressful.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#226

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 2:21 PM UTC

_lex wrote: post #180

novia wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you look at the full response though.. She is supportive of the woman in the audience who spoke up. Veronika Hubeny: I applaud your heroism in standing up for what you believe in! I know well the shaky feeling and subsequent exhilarated and heartwarmed contentment in the knowledge of having done the right thing, and I think that doing so has become more crucial than ever. Your behavior was inspiring and I’m glad…

I think it's worth considering that we're seeing some survivorship bias here - it's possible that she's the only woman on the panel because she thinks this way. In other words, it's possible that other women who would have seen this event as being rooted in sexism may eventually be a part of so many similar events during their career that they effectively burn out and switch to more female friendly fields. This has b…

[deleted]

Re: “Let her speak please”

#227

Post by kcanini » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 2:21 PM UTC

vog wrote: post #197

golemotron wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This might be the thing that is most problematic about 'call out' culture. We assume that we know the intention of people's behavior (sexism) and how it is received (offense). In many cases there may be neither. But I'm just cynical enough to suspect that this many not matter to people who 'call out.' They feel that they are on a mission to make society better regardless of whether there are problems in any individua…

I don't see any "'call out' culture" here. Note that the person in the audience did not say "you are sexist". The words were "Let her speak please". Specific, and to the point. (EDIT: The article itself uses the word "sexist", so it might indeed have been a call-out. However, that doesn't affect my point that we should not tolerate shitty behaviour, no matter which label is attached to it.) The moderator's behvaiour…

Yeah, but the entire Facebook post was a tirade about sexism.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#228

Post by okreallywtf » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 2:21 PM UTC

FussyZeus wrote: post #156

trendia wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd have to agree though that it's a remarkable coincidence that the moderator began to ramble when he started talking about a topic that he was particularly excited about and which he was not particularly knowledgeable about.

I don't expect he set out that day to make the scientist shut up because she was a woman. A lot of sexism is so deeply rooted that it's not even hostile by the men who engage in it, it's simply the acting of the cultural norms, for example, that men can talk over women. I don't have a sexist bone in my body and I've caught myself doing this. The only way we improve as a society is to continuously monitor and correct…

TLDR Even if its not a purely sexist situation if women make up a significant percentage of the victims of this behavior I think it is OK to consider it in the context of women. Rape isn't entirely male on female, both male on male and female on male and female on female also occur but male on female rape is the most prevalent and therefore gets an appropriate proportional amount of attention. It doesn't mean thats the only way it occurs but why derail a conversation about a serious issue facing women by reminding them that they aren't 100% of the problem, just 99%.

That being said, I'm not sure why you are getting downvoted but I've also found myself doing this accidentally and I've learned to moderate myself.

I don't think it is necessarily related to sexism directly, but I am used to talking to people (generally other men) who similarly assertive (not to say any of us are majorly assertive, just we're all at a similar level) and we understand each others speaking style and butt in (somewhat) at the appropriate spot to make a point.

When talking to someone who doesn't converse quite the same way (regardless of gender) it can be a problem. I've talked to people who won't just butt in when you are hogging the conversation and if you want to not have a 1 way conversation (ie, you are not an ass) you have to allow more space for the other person - its a basic courtesy and part of learning to have good conversations. My girlfriend has been helpful in self-identifying this situation because if I'm overly excited (coffee often being involved) she'll straight up tell me rather than putting up with it and I'll realize I was kind of rolling over her unintentionally.

I have no idea if this guy is sexist or not, it may be a subtle deep rooted kind or it may be he's a terrible conversationalist/host but despite the fact that this situation probably occurs more frequently from men to women but its definitely not limited to that.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#229

Post by jccalhoun » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 2:21 PM UTC

randomguy23 wrote: post #221

_lex wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's worth considering that we're seeing some survivorship bias here - it's possible that she's the only woman on the panel because she thinks this way. In other words, it's possible that other women who would have seen this event as being rooted in sexism may eventually be a part of so many similar events during their career that they effectively burn out and switch to more female friendly fields. This has b…

If you wear sexism-colored glasses, don't be surprised if everything looks like sexism. That, I think, is what she's getting at. If you're always looking for a slight, always looking for a snide remark, you'll find it. Perception shapes reality.

"If you wear sexism-colored glasses, don't be surprised if everything looks like sexism."

and if you wear glasses that block out sexism, don't be surprised if nothing looks like sexism.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#230

Post by TheGirondin » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 2:23 PM UTC

Ensorceled wrote: post #47

humanrebar wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't this whole thread about not letting people talk over you? Only listening and not being able to contribute back to what should be a conversation? Everyone has the right to express frustration, I think.

You missed the point entirely. This thread is specifically and pointedly about men speaking over top women, especially when there is a power differential (panelist vs. moderator in this case). Not about the general problem of needing to speak up for yourself.

Exactly. The other poster needs to just shut up.