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“Let her speak please”

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Re: “Let her speak please”

#181

Post by golemotron »

andai wrote: post #86

> You may be amazed to hear it, but during this panel session I genuinely did not feel affronted or discriminated by the moderator’s behavior. It seemed more amusing to see him try posing a question in a way that at the same time tried answering it. It’s true that this made the question a bit of a moving target for me (and therefore harder to address coherently), but I don’t a-priori assume that the incident was root…

This might be the thing that is most problematic about 'call out' culture. We assume that we know the intention of people's behavior (sexism) and how it is received (offense). In many cases there may be neither. But I'm just cynical enough to suspect that this many not matter to people who 'call out.' They feel that they are on a mission to make society better regardless of whether there are problems in any individual case.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#182

Post by vog »

trendia wrote: post #164
FussyZeus wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't expect he set out that day to make the scientist shut up because she was a woman. A lot of sexism is so deeply rooted that it's not even hostile by the men who engage in it, it's simply the acting of the cultural norms, for example, that men can talk over women. I don't have a sexist bone in my body and I've caught myself doing this. The only way we improve as a society is to continuously monitor and correct…

I don't think he was doing that because he was sexist, I think he was doing that because he was really excited about the duality. The only way to improve society is to recognize when things are really done with ill intent and when they're the result of: geeking out + bad social skills

> The only way to improve society is to recognize when things are really done with ill intent

I strongly disagree. We need to fix issues no matter if they had been done because of ignorance or because of ill intent.

The measures and consequences should be different, but naming and fixing the issue should be independent from that.

"Bad social skills" is a common excuse, but in the end, it's just another word for ignorance. Learning a few social rules is like learning design patterns, and learning not to be sexist or racist is like learning about anti-patterns. It is not harder than coding! If anything, learning social basics is easier than programming.

But if you don't care, you won't learn it. Which you may choose to, but then, it's ignorance, not inability.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#183

Post by zaphar »

discombobulate wrote: post #159

I received a delivery from a black gentleman today. Whilst reaching out for the package I was concerned he may think I'm racist if I wasn't excessively nice to him. I think I may be uncomfortable around minorities for fear of being labelled a racist. I have a similar worry around women. I think becoming racist would solve my concerns -- at least in my own mind. However, it doesn't make any sense to do that: individua…

My recommendation is not become a racist. But maybe instead to treat everyone with the same sense of care that you are making the effort to do for a minority. You can't go wrong treating people with respect and empathy.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#184

Post by ygaf »

nailer wrote: post #8
vjvj wrote: post #2

Can someone paste the contents here?

Marilee Talkington 4 June at 17:40 · So, after thinking about this over night, I've decided to share something that happened at the WORLD SCIENCE FESTIVAL yesterday afternoon in NYC that changed me. Or rather made me step into who I am in a larger way. As some on my feed have seen, I was live-feeding the beginning of the panel discussion on FB. That panel was made up of some of the greatest and most famous minds in t…

Thanks for the FBpaste.

> WHY, does someone like me, with No status in that room, have to be so extraordinarily bold and speak up? And why was it so frightening to do so?

Audience members do have some status, she actually exercised the precise limit of that status. Audience members aren't meant to have equal status, because that's just called a bunch of people in a studio / anarchy.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#185

Post by trynumber9 »

discombobulate wrote: post #159

I received a delivery from a black gentleman today. Whilst reaching out for the package I was concerned he may think I'm racist if I wasn't excessively nice to him. I think I may be uncomfortable around minorities for fear of being labelled a racist. I have a similar worry around women. I think becoming racist would solve my concerns -- at least in my own mind. However, it doesn't make any sense to do that: individua…

The best idea is to stop worrying. If you're a racist someone will write a comment about it and then, when it makes it big on HN, you may reflect upon your errors.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#186

Post by exodust »

ivraatiems wrote: post #117
exodust wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's spot on. Unfortunately the swarm of social media opinion in support of the more scornful verdict, is what the news outlets pick up and run with regardless of truth. That said, he was insensitive at the point in question where he should have let her speak. You could sort of tell he was trying to organise and grasp the ideas in his own mind, probably in an effort to stay on top of things. A clumsy moderator mome…

> Let's not forget, she had the right to speak up and say "can I answer the question"... We all have the responsibility and option to guide things back on track if something isn't running smoothly. Don't just sit there waiting for balance to restore, or for the audience to come to rescue, do something about it. Women who do this are very often shamed and called "pushy" or "aggressive" for doing so, even though a man…

> The advice you're giving, frankly, is part of the problem.

No. It's your paranoid prophesy that is frankly the problem.

You're labelling women as victims before any crime has happened. Your confirmation bias has everything worked out ahead of time, including the derogatory remarks awaiting any woman who dares cross the line you've drawn in red paint.

Nobody would label the scientist on the panel as pushy or inappropriate for simply correcting a moderator's error. The moment would be forgotten seconds later instead of becoming the next awkward drama 'one woman vs world of men'.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#187

Post by obstacle1 »

throwaway91111 wrote: post #162
andrepd wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you would like to address the substance of the comment, otherwise your only argument is "you are arguing and you shouldn't".

Substance? What does the comment bring up worth discussing? It's not clear the comment has any empathy for anyone involved but the asshole. What value could anyone gain from the comment? The game of "is it bigotry or just a terrible person" is never a fun game and leaves everyone bitter. One day it'll be nice to look at grey area and have the discussion center around what i'm looking at, rather than the fact it's gre…

> i do think women experience this disproportionately. The above comment managed to avoid any recognition of this.

Why would I recognize something that isn't an established fact, but your personal belief? That isn't reasoned debate, it's you wanting us to pander to your narcissism.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#188

Post by nervousvarun »

nailer wrote: post #18
danso wrote: post #3

The Observer has an article about this: http://observer.com/2017/06/sexism-science-facebook-mansplai... The video of the event is here: http://www.worldsciencefestival.com/programs/big-universe-bi... edit: Youtube version, at the 1:02 mark where people apparently were getting irritated: https://youtu.be/Er7qPv8jsZo?t=1h1m55s

1:05:39 Nerds do this a lot. It's annoying AF. I've had conversations about topics like zopfli or 'HTTPS in the 90s' where I was sure I was right (and I was) but the other person was so confident and loud I genuinely wondered if I was missing something.

"Nerds do this a lot."

Agreed but we can be less specific here...human males do this a lot.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#189

Post by trendia »

vog wrote: post #182
trendia wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think he was doing that because he was sexist, I think he was doing that because he was really excited about the duality. The only way to improve society is to recognize when things are really done with ill intent and when they're the result of: geeking out + bad social skills

> The only way to improve society is to recognize when things are really done with ill intent I strongly disagree. We need to fix issues no matter if they had been done because of ignorance or because of ill intent. The measures and consequences should be different, but naming and fixing the issue should be independent from that. "Bad social skills" is a common excuse, but in the end, it's just another word for ignor…

Are you saying we should fix when people geek out about a topic and ramble? If so, I agree. But good luck making progress on that!

Re: “Let her speak please”

#190

Post by humanrebar »

chris_wot wrote: post #132
humanrebar wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can't bother her too much. They just announced their engagement. https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/05/04/business/media/morning...

That doesn't mean it doesn't bother her!

I'm assuming she isn't interested in marrying a sexist jerk. But, yes, there's plenty of room to be annoyed with ones' significant other. It's to be expected, really.
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