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“Let her speak please”

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Re: “Let her speak please”

#231

Post by chisleu »

birracerveza wrote: post #46

The exaggeration of this post is infuriating. I saw the video, and while I do agree that Jim Holt was especially rude in asking questions and then start talking as soon as she started answering, that is all it is. Rudeness. Not sexism. He did it with the men too.

He did it with the men, AND he had reason to believe she was nervous or otherwise less communicative because she had an hour where many theories she certainly has views on were discussed and barely chimed in.

The moderator is a scientist with a clear understanding of the subject matters being discussed. I agree that it was a poor way to try to involve her, but the FB post is off the rails.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#232

Post by ivraatiems »

exodust wrote: post #186
ivraatiems wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Let's not forget, she had the right to speak up and say "can I answer the question"... We all have the responsibility and option to guide things back on track if something isn't running smoothly. Don't just sit there waiting for balance to restore, or for the audience to come to rescue, do something about it. Women who do this are very often shamed and called "pushy" or "aggressive" for doing so, even though a man…

> The advice you're giving, frankly, is part of the problem. No. It's your paranoid prophesy that is frankly the problem. You're labelling women as victims before any crime has happened. Your confirmation bias has everything worked out ahead of time, including the derogatory remarks awaiting any woman who dares cross the line you've drawn in red paint. Nobody would label the scientist on the panel as pushy or inappro…

> You're labelling women as victims before any crime has happened. Your confirmation bias has everything worked out ahead of time, including the derogatory remarks awaiting any woman who dares cross the line you've drawn in red paint.

Nobody's accusing anybody of any "crime." I don't understand why you're stepping up the rhetoric like this. It's not a war, it's not about punishing anyone, it's about correcting social misbehavior that was harmful - whether it was intended to be or not.

> You're labeling women as victims before any crime has happened. Your confirmation bias has everything worked out ahead of time, including the derogatory remarks awaiting any woman who dares cross the line you've drawn in red paint.

Knowing nothing about you (as you know nothing about me), I could easily make the same assertion you're making here: That the only reason you don't see sexism is because you are biased against seeing it. But it's no more likely that everyone in this thread arguing against this being sexism is doing so for biased reasons than it is that everyone arguing that it is sexism is doing so.

What is actually happening is that we have looked at the same situation and seen it two different ways. What's being requested here is some amount of empathy for and understanding of the viewpoint you don't agree with, not some kind of punishment or shaming. When someone says "let her talk," they're not saying "how dare you oppress her with your talking," they're saying "I want to hear from her about her, not from you about her."

I'm a guy; I understand how this could be seen as no big deal to other guys. But I also can see how people not in my situation wouldn't see it that way. I'm asking you to try to do the same, rather than just write off everybody who doesn't share your opinion as irrevocably and maliciously biased.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#233

Post by [deleted] »

vog wrote: post #215
trendia wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying we should fix when people geek out about a topic and ramble? If so, I agree. But good luck making progress on that!

It may be uncomfortable, but it's the only way to make cultural progress. You should especially take care of that if you have any major position in a larger group, not matter if it is a company department, an open-source project or a user-group. If nobody cares visibly about social behaviour, that group is either doomed and won't achieve anything in the long run. Or it reduces a very low number of active participants…

[deleted]

Re: “Let her speak please”

#234

Post by collyw »

DanBC wrote: post #74
mosselman wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My thoughts exactly. It is beyond all doubt that sexism exists in the world, there are countless examples of it, from Disney movies, toy advertisement, philharmonic orchestra, etc, etc. I find it a bit strange to label the speaker as a sexist just because he didn't let someone speak. Maybe he is just a dick? Maybe she was rude to him back stage? Maybe he was having a bad day? Maybe the chemistry between them was off?…

People talking over other people is a problem of sexism because the people doing the talking are mostly men, and the people being talked over are mostly (but not always) women; but also because the consequences for challenging this behaviour are different for men and women. If a man asserts himself he's seen as confident and assertive, and other positive labels If a woman asserts herself she's seen as aggressive, shr…

Bollocks. I have two ex-collegues who were exactly like this, no matter who they interacted with. I make a point of avoiding them now.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#235

Post by mixologic »

golemotron wrote: post #181
andai wrote: post #86

> You may be amazed to hear it, but during this panel session I genuinely did not feel affronted or discriminated by the moderator’s behavior. It seemed more amusing to see him try posing a question in a way that at the same time tried answering it. It’s true that this made the question a bit of a moving target for me (and therefore harder to address coherently), but I don’t a-priori assume that the incident was root…

This might be the thing that is most problematic about 'call out' culture. We assume that we know the intention of people's behavior (sexism) and how it is received (offense). In many cases there may be neither. But I'm just cynical enough to suspect that this many not matter to people who 'call out.' They feel that they are on a mission to make society better regardless of whether there are problems in any individua…

'Impact' is far more important than 'intent'. People do racist/sexist/less than ideal things all the time, without even meaning to, because many of those behaviors are ingrained/systemic. Not meaning to be sexist doesn't excuse sexism.

I agree that call out culture sometimes doesn't leave room for nuance and sometimes unnecessarily shoves people into defensive spaces - i.e. telling people they 'are sexist' vs telling them a behavior they are exhibiting is 'a little sexist'.

In this situation the impact wasn't "The speaker is being offended, I must speak up", the situation was "Im here to hear what the expert has to say on the subject that they are an expert in, and the moderator is doing all the talking" Which would be irritating regardless of the genders involved. But this behavior fit with a very common pattern of men speaking over/for women.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#236

Post by discombobulate »

roberto wrote: post #217
discombobulate wrote: post #159

I received a delivery from a black gentleman today. Whilst reaching out for the package I was concerned he may think I'm racist if I wasn't excessively nice to him. I think I may be uncomfortable around minorities for fear of being labelled a racist. I have a similar worry around women. I think becoming racist would solve my concerns -- at least in my own mind. However, it doesn't make any sense to do that: individua…

If you're a white heterosexual male you're probably not used to being uncomfortable because the whole world was made for you. You don't feel uncomfortable when you see the police. You don't feel uncomfortable walking down your street at night by yourself. You don't feel uncomfortable going to your church. You don't feel uncomfortable kissing your spouse in the street. In my opinion, the discomfort you're feeling is n…

> If you're a white heterosexual male you're probably not used to being uncomfortable because the whole world was made for you.

I was close to homeless a couple of times -- when I was younger. That didn't make the world feel like it was made for me.

> You don't feel uncomfortable when you see the police.

The last police I saw stopped their car and watched me walk down the road.

> You don't feel uncomfortable walking down your street at night by yourself.

Depends on where I am.

> You don't feel uncomfortable going to your church.

I don't believe in God. There's no evidence. There also seem to be many groups claiming their God is the correct God. The probability of picking the correct God seems low: given an infinite search space.

> You don't feel uncomfortable kissing your spouse in the street.

I don't have a spouse. And am probably not going to have a gf for a long time. I've had some health problems and the last girl I liked didn't like me back.

> In my opinion, the discomfort you're feeling is nothing compared to the others I described. So get used to it. We do the right thing because it's right, not because it's easy.

I'll take that into consideration.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#237

Post by auggierose »

Ensorceled wrote: post #161
CPLX wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tend to be sympathetic to the original poster of the story, it sounds like the woman was treated differently, and an expert being talked over like that by a host is ridiculous. It does indeed sound like an example of sexism. This probably marks me as an ignorant oppressor, but I do find this style of telling a story to be a bit confusing and off-putting though. Why all the references to "with my hands shaking" and…

Speaking up in public or confronting people has this effect on many, many people. It is an indication of something that you think explaining a woman's own theories to her in public a "relatively straightforward conversational faux-pas". You should ponder that.

It clearly sounds like sexism (probably non-intentional, but is that better or worse?).

On the other hand, the woman who spoke up seems to be an actress working at a theatre, so public speaking is probably not a problem for her.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#238

Post by croon »

trendia wrote: post #220
croon wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way I see it: * He was geeking out. True. * There was no ill intent. True. * He wasn't sexist. False. He could geek out all he wanted, but speaking for her multiple times over her trying to get a foot in was very sexist, regardless of intent. I hold the door for guys all the time, but if you're only doing it for "feeble girls" it is telling. This was the case in this panel. She's there because she knows her shit,…

I've spoken to people like this moderator and they just ramble over any topic they get excited about. What specifically makes you think he rambled because she was a woman?

> I've spoken to people like this moderator and they just ramble over any topic they get excited about.

Sure, me too, and they're generally consistent in that between genders. This guy isn't. And people like him are very common too.

> What specifically makes you think he rambled because she was a woman?

By watching the entire video and comparing him to his conduct with the other panelists interviewed. She also wasn't the only non-native speaker, so it's not that either.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#239

Post by collyw »

jancsika wrote: post #167

I remember a sociologist once remarking that prejudice (racism in the case we were discussing) exists quite apart from an individual's intentions. Most of the comments here appear to assume that prejudice is determined solely (or mainly) by the moderator's intentions-- hence the endless quests to somehow prove what is or isn't lurking in the moderator's soul. That seems irrelevant in this case, but I haven't read the…

Is there anything that gives this socialogist any more credibility than me if I claimed the opposite?

Re: “Let her speak please”

#240

Post by suby »

funnyfacts365 wrote: post #203
k__ wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where?

TFA

I read the facebook post and did not see a video link anywhere. I came to the comments to find the video. You could have actually been helpful and linked to the video.

For anyone interested, the link is here.

http://www.worldsciencefestival.com/programs/big-universe-bi...

edit: The moment happens at roughly 1 hour 7 minutes in.

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