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Ask HN: Why does visual programming suck?

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Re: Ask HN: Why does visual programming suck?

#211

Post by karmelapple »

nichochar wrote: post #207
kbuchanan wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this statement, wholeheartedly. I do, however, think programming languages could benefit from more visual augmentation . A program, over time, takes on more complexity than a programmer can hold in his mind, and eventually, the program's design will elude him. A disconnect appears between the text he types in the moment and the original design of the program. The sum total of the program's code no longer…

This is, I think, the idea behind IDEs

Yet which IDEs aren't simply really nice text editors with some refactoring help built in?

Making these visualizations central to the IDE would be exciting.

Re: Ask HN: Why does visual programming suck?

#212

Post by phantom_package »

I really enjoy Unreal's Blueprints. I program in a text-based language for work, so it's fun for me to go home and be able to hack on a game without having to spend more hours staring at text on a screen.

A big difference that I've noticed is that in a visual scripting language, the "nodes" in the graph can change their shape/color/layout/etc based on what type of node they are. I love this. With blueprints, if I'm putting together a material and I put in a color node, a color picker shows up. If I put in a TextureSample node, a little picture of the texture shows up. In a text-based language, every variable is just a string of characters - if you want to be able to tell at a glance what type of object a variable contains, you need to adopt some kind of a naming convention (or use an IDE that highlights them).

Debugging in unreal is also really cool. The "code paths" light up when activated, so it's really easy to see exactly which branches of code are and aren't being run - and that's without actually using a debugger. Side note - it would be awesome if the lines of text in my IDE lit up as they were run. Also, debugging games is just incredibly fun and sometimes leads to new mechanics.

I initially thought that organization would be a problem, but it turns out that you can make functions just like any other programming language, and encapsulate blueprints inside of them.

There are also some things that I don't like about Blueprints. Typecasting usually involves an extra node which feels verbose. If/thens are handled with a "Branch" node, which again feels verbose.

Re: Ask HN: Why does visual programming suck?

#214

Post by Too »

crazygringo wrote: post #126
hasenj wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly! I'm actually bewildered why some people think visual programming is a good idea at all.

I suspect it has to do entirely with affordances. Programming in text, you have to learn, in advance, what the commands are that you're allowed to type, and remember them. That's a heavy up-front investment. Visual programming generally makes it much clearer exactly what your range of options are -- the goal is for the learning curve to be far easier.

Good autocompletion with intuitively named standard library comes close to this. When coding c# in visual studio I very rarely have to look at documentation, you just guess what the class or function might be called and get the options presented for you.

Re: Ask HN: Why does visual programming suck?

#215

Post by Too »

yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #133
hasenj wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly! I'm actually bewildered why some people think visual programming is a good idea at all.

Zero syntax errors.

This is also one of the beauties of text programming. It allows temporary syntax errors while restructuring things.

I've used many visual tools where every block you laid out had to be properly connected, so in order to refactor it you had to make dummy blocks as input and output and all other kinds of crap. Adding or removing arguments and return values of functions/blocks is guaranteed to give you rsi from excessive mousing.

Re: Ask HN: Why does visual programming suck?

#216

Post by LrnByTeach »

pvinis wrote: post #108
nikofeyn wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

then why does everyone sketch a picture when trying to convey an idea? text is obviously useful but so is visual information. the complete dismissal of visual programming by text-based programmers is often infuriating. visual programming can provide an immediate indication of structure and dataflow, something that text-based languages struggle with. in my mind, the best case scenario is some sort of hybrid, where vis…

Check out this video. He has a nice explanation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_SvuUYQ5Fo Basically, painting/diagram is good for more abstract overview, and text/code is for more specific instructions.

> Check out this video. He has a nice explanation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_SvuUYQ5Fo

>Basically, painting/diagram is good for more abstract overview, and text/code is for more specific instructions.

very well Said ..

Re: Ask HN: Why does visual programming suck?

#217

Post by vosper »

kbuchanan wrote: post #195
devcriollo wrote: post #182

"Text is the most socially useful communication technology. It works well in 1:1, 1:N, and M:N modes. It can be indexed and searched efficiently, even by hand. It can be translated. It can be produced and consumed at variable speeds. It is asynchronous. It can be compared, diffed, clustered, corrected, summarized and filtered algorithmically. It permits multiparty editing. It permits branching conversations, lurking,…

I agree with this statement, wholeheartedly. I do, however, think programming languages could benefit from more visual augmentation . A program, over time, takes on more complexity than a programmer can hold in his mind, and eventually, the program's design will elude him. A disconnect appears between the text he types in the moment and the original design of the program. The sum total of the program's code no longer…

I have a dream that one day we'll collectively realize that "buying programmers the best tools" means the most powerful, and not the shiniest. Then we'll all be running ultra-wide monitors with room for many different visual aides on the one screen, backed by the CPU horsepower (overclocked and liquid cooled, if necessary) to make it all fast. And, hopefully, we'll see what an IDE can really be.

Re: Ask HN: Why does visual programming suck?

#218

Post by ekimekim »

baddox wrote: post #97
nikofeyn wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

then why does everyone sketch a picture when trying to convey an idea? text is obviously useful but so is visual information. the complete dismissal of visual programming by text-based programmers is often infuriating. visual programming can provide an immediate indication of structure and dataflow, something that text-based languages struggle with. in my mind, the best case scenario is some sort of hybrid, where vis…

> then why does everyone sketch a picture when trying to convey an idea? Does everyone do that? I think I very rarely do. When I need to convey an idea on a whiteboard, it's still almost completely text, with a few extra symbols like directional arrows that I think are still effectively just symbolic written language. Literally the only time I can remember sketching a picture to convey an idea is while playing Pictio…

I find it's useful for sketching out high level designs, particularly showing how different components interact, or the flow of data through a system. Visual information in this context trades off specifics for a birds-eye view.

Re: Ask HN: Why does visual programming suck?

#219

Post by LoSboccacc »

nikofeyn wrote: post #71
Changu wrote: post #52

I think the reason is that text is already a highly optimized visual way to represent information. It started with cave paintings and evolved to what it is now. "Please go to the supermarket and get two bottles of beer. If you see Joe, tell him we are having a party in my house at 6 tomorrow." It took me a few seconds to write that. Imagine I had to paint it.

then why does everyone sketch a picture when trying to convey an idea? text is obviously useful but so is visual information. the complete dismissal of visual programming by text-based programmers is often infuriating. visual programming can provide an immediate indication of structure and dataflow, something that text-based languages struggle with. in my mind, the best case scenario is some sort of hybrid, where vis…

Because that way you can abstract away lot of fine complexity and communicate higher order ideas faster

That still means you need writing to express all the intricacies of programming the details.

Alas hybrid languages where you can link developed blocks visually exists and works (bpel, webratio), but no pure visual language could let you describe the intricacies of taxation in a sane way

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