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Ask HN: Why does visual programming suck?

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Re: Ask HN: Why does visual programming suck?

#51

Post by samblr »

dvdhsu wrote: post #38
radva42 wrote: post #24

I've been working on a project that does exactly what you described for the last few years. IMHO vue.js/react really changed the game here, especially for CRUD apps. For example what I did was to code a server part in golang and use vue.js on the frontend and for the app builder. Using the web-based app builder (also 100% vue) the user can design forms. The forms are stored as serialized JSON in the database and the…

That's cool -- you should share a link! I've actually also been working on something just like this, which is why I asked for feedback with this. I'll post it on HN tomorrow via a Show HN so we can compare! For anybody interested -- email is in profile. Happy to give you a sneak peek!

This is cool! Yes, looking forward to tomorrow's post.

Re: Ask HN: Why does visual programming suck?

#52

Post by Changu »

I think the reason is that text is already a highly optimized visual way to represent information. It started with cave paintings and evolved to what it is now.

"Please go to the supermarket and get two bottles of beer. If you see Joe, tell him we are having a party in my house at 6 tomorrow."

It took me a few seconds to write that. Imagine I had to paint it.

Re: Ask HN: Why does visual programming suck?

#53

Post by nickbauman »

The old "Gold Standard" for WYSIWYG programming has been Apple's Interface Builder. But every iOS dev I know has moved entirely away from IB in favor of programatic construction of the UI (in Swift or Objective-C text). Why? Because they want to have automated tests over everything they can.

The simpler way to say this is: "Complex ideas can only really precisely be expressed in text. To the degree you can express them visually is to the degree that there are expressed as complex text underneath."

Re: Ask HN: Why does visual programming suck?

#54

Post by tmccrmck »

skadamat wrote: post #20

The way people have implemented visual programming has turned out to be a bit of an oxymoron. Visual and symbolic are entirely different channels of representation & understanding (for the most part). Representing a program using lines of code and throwing some "visual magic" to spread out lines of code across a screen doesn't take advantage of what EITHER visual or symbolic manipulation has to offer. Visual programm…

I wonder how Victor's Realtalk project will incorporate his interest into visual programming: https://harc.ycr.org/project/realtalk/

Also, for anyone interested it looks like he just posted on HN for the first time under user 'worrydream'.

Re: Ask HN: Why does visual programming suck?

#55

Post by icebraining »

david927 wrote: post #16

I disagree with several here: The problem is that we still program in text, and that's deeply sub-optimal.* Once we move to programming in data, visual programming becomes both natural and intuitive, much like data visualization. In other words, VP itself is a red herring. The leap that needs to first to be made is that from text to data. * https://www.emaze.com/@AWOCZQLL/Text-is-for-Novels

That's the claim, but where's the evidence? Is there any implementation that can show us that?

Re: Ask HN: Why does visual programming suck?

#56

Post by thebaer »

mcphage wrote: post #7

That's how Interface Builder on macOS/iOS works, especially in concert with Key Value Coding and Key Value Binding. It's cool stuff, check it out.

As a fellow mobile developer, I highly prefer Android's non-visual option with human-readable and -editable XML. I always find myself editing layouts textually and then just using the visual editor to preview how things look.

Interface Builder was great for me at first, when learning iOS-specific controls and how everything worked, but as I've gotten better I've found it's always more of a hindrance. Things really start to break down when you need to move fully laid-out controls to a new container, for example, whereas Android's XML layouts let me do that by deleting/changing a few lines of text.

Re: Ask HN: Why does visual programming suck?

#57

Post by edejong »

Things that are difficult in visual languages:

- Humans are centered around linear communication. Spoken language is essentially linear, with good use of a stack of concepts. This story-telling mode maps better on a linear, textual representation than on a graphical representation. When provided with a graph, it is difficult to find the start and end. Humans think in graphs, but communicate linearly.

- Graphs are rather hard to manipulate. You invariably need a mouse, which is a rather slow instrument. Using keyboard combo's is certainly possible, but is difficult to make intuitive.

- A textual representation can be left in a syntactical incoherent position while editing. For example, I can have non-matching braces. This proves very helpful in quickly editing code. Visual programming paradigms generally require a coherent structure, in order to keep them editable.

- UI builders are extremely valuable, but this is technically not visual programming. UI builders have problems as well. Complex UIs are often parameterised (the fields themselves are variable). By offering a visual context and a textual context, the coding experience can become incoherent and more difficult to learn.

- Programming is very context dependant. A programmer focusses on a specific part, mentally forming a high-dimensional representation of the algorithm at hand and the larger context. Using a visual representation possibly competes with the mental map. Also, it forces upon the reader a scoping.

Re: Ask HN: Why does visual programming suck?

#58

Post by hakanito »

richard_shelton wrote: post #46

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. Look at complex CAD systems and editors. They focused on the visual side and still provide some kind of command line for scripting the things. Even in pure visual programming systems like PD you can type algebraic expressions in textual form. And in text-based systems you may have lots of 2d tables (Smalltalk), graphs of modules, semantic colors (colorForth) etc. Imagine…

For web apps, this is possible using Chrome and the style editor. Very effective way of live editing visual styles. Functionality is a different beast though

Re: Ask HN: Why does visual programming suck?

#59

Post by hasenj »

Changu wrote: post #52

I think the reason is that text is already a highly optimized visual way to represent information. It started with cave paintings and evolved to what it is now. "Please go to the supermarket and get two bottles of beer. If you see Joe, tell him we are having a party in my house at 6 tomorrow." It took me a few seconds to write that. Imagine I had to paint it.

Exactly! I'm actually bewildered why some people think visual programming is a good idea at all.

Re: Ask HN: Why does visual programming suck?

#60

Post by GuiA »

Changu wrote: post #52

I think the reason is that text is already a highly optimized visual way to represent information. It started with cave paintings and evolved to what it is now. "Please go to the supermarket and get two bottles of beer. If you see Joe, tell him we are having a party in my house at 6 tomorrow." It took me a few seconds to write that. Imagine I had to paint it.

请你到超市去买两瓶酒。如果你见Joe，告诉他我们明天六点钟参加派对在我的家。

Here, that was quite fast to paint. Would have been even faster with a proper brush instead of a keyboard :p

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