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Ask HN: Why does visual programming suck?

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Re: Ask HN: Why does visual programming suck?

#91

Post by nikofeyn »

zepolen wrote: post #77
nikofeyn wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

then why does everyone sketch a picture when trying to convey an idea? text is obviously useful but so is visual information. the complete dismissal of visual programming by text-based programmers is often infuriating. visual programming can provide an immediate indication of structure and dataflow, something that text-based languages struggle with. in my mind, the best case scenario is some sort of hybrid, where vis…

They are adding words in the form of thoughts or speech to describe the drawing.

that's not always true. the visual representation of an idea that can also be conveyed in text can oftentimes provide additional information not easily gleaned from the text-based representation. the easiest example of this is the visual representation of the graph of a function. a more advanced one is feynman diagrams. also think of symbology that is so ubiquitous in mathematics. it's much easier to write x_n->x absolutely rather than detail out the text-based definition of absolute convergence. obviously this latter idea is close to writing a function or procedure in code that consolidates an idea to a smaller textual representation, but symbology in mathematics far outpaces that of symbology in text-based programming languages.

Re: Ask HN: Why does visual programming suck?

#92

Post by david927 »

afarrell wrote: post #69
david927 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So do you use text files for storage or a database? Is your company's accounting system in Word or Oracle? Are programs text, like a novel, or is it data? And to find out, would you query Moby Dick? Not really -- at least that's not how it's meant to be consumed. You read it from beginning to end. Would you read your program from beginning to end or would you query it? You query it, exclusively. I submit that program…

Right, code is data. But the interface to write and modify that data is text. Consider, how long does it take you to draw an infographic representing the percentage of the United States that has a college education? How long does it take to modify it when you realise it is a mistake Now how long does it take you to represent/change that data with text?

Your example is strange. Changing the text and changing the data would require the same amount of time. And a graph would, in fact, instantly put that change into context.

Right, code is data.

Not now, though. Currently, code is text -- it's not data. That's the problem. And, yes, currently, drawing it instead of typing out the text is a horrible idea. We agree.

But remember, currently, we're failing. Software is a disgrace of an industry, in all honestly. It's mired in undue complexity. It's a Rube Goldberg contraption that we all, somehow, take seriously.

Imagine a better future. Imagine visualizing a complex set of rules and seeing all the places where a change would cause knock-on effects. Imagine being able to manage your code base in a way that doesn't require you to download it all into your head. Hell, imagine a decent IDE. The first step for all of that is to move it from text to data.

Re: Ask HN: Why does visual programming suck?

#93

Post by worldsayshi »

lisper wrote: post #78

> The type of visual programming I'm thinking about here is a WYSIWYG drag and drop interface for building UIs. The main challenge in this particular domain is describing what is supposed to happen to the layout when the size of the window changes, or if there are dependencies among visual elements (e.g. some element only appears when a check box is checked). When laying things out visually you can only ever design o…

Yes there are a lot of options but I don't think that it would be inconceivable to have such options split out as separate components.

I want an hide-overflow behavior to this component, then I just wrap it with a hide-overflow component. Doing that drag-and-drop should work. Then again you would need to design such components in a way that makes them intuitive to use, but that's always the case.

Re: Ask HN: Why does visual programming suck?

#94

Post by wybiral »

nikofeyn wrote: post #71
Changu wrote: post #52

I think the reason is that text is already a highly optimized visual way to represent information. It started with cave paintings and evolved to what it is now. "Please go to the supermarket and get two bottles of beer. If you see Joe, tell him we are having a party in my house at 6 tomorrow." It took me a few seconds to write that. Imagine I had to paint it.

then why does everyone sketch a picture when trying to convey an idea? text is obviously useful but so is visual information. the complete dismissal of visual programming by text-based programmers is often infuriating. visual programming can provide an immediate indication of structure and dataflow, something that text-based languages struggle with. in my mind, the best case scenario is some sort of hybrid, where vis…

There are hybrid languages, like Python... Visual whitespace denotes blocks while visual symbols like "if", "for", and "def" denote the meaning of those blocks.

(and sane programmers use visual layout to convey structure in every language)

Re: Ask HN: Why does visual programming suck?

#95

Post by dalacv »

petra wrote: post #42
bcherny wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looking at the website [0], this is a joke right? Flashy marketing business speak sales site with charts, but what does the product look like? [0] http://low-code.com

You're kidding, right ? that's a really low effort search :) Anyway, i gave a link above, with good info, including names of leading companies. Here's one: https://www.mendix.com/

Also , outsystems and bubble.is, oracle Apex

Re: Ask HN: Why does visual programming suck?

#97

Post by baddox »

nikofeyn wrote: post #71
Changu wrote: post #52

I think the reason is that text is already a highly optimized visual way to represent information. It started with cave paintings and evolved to what it is now. "Please go to the supermarket and get two bottles of beer. If you see Joe, tell him we are having a party in my house at 6 tomorrow." It took me a few seconds to write that. Imagine I had to paint it.

then why does everyone sketch a picture when trying to convey an idea? text is obviously useful but so is visual information. the complete dismissal of visual programming by text-based programmers is often infuriating. visual programming can provide an immediate indication of structure and dataflow, something that text-based languages struggle with. in my mind, the best case scenario is some sort of hybrid, where vis…

> then why does everyone sketch a picture when trying to convey an idea?

Does everyone do that? I think I very rarely do. When I need to convey an idea on a whiteboard, it's still almost completely text, with a few extra symbols like directional arrows that I think are still effectively just symbolic written language.

Literally the only time I can remember sketching a picture to convey an idea is while playing Pictionary. The entire premise of that game is that it is much more difficult to get someone to say a specific word by drawing a picture than by simply writing down the word.

Re: Ask HN: Why does visual programming suck?

#98

Post by gt_ »

nikofeyn wrote: post #71
Changu wrote: post #52

I think the reason is that text is already a highly optimized visual way to represent information. It started with cave paintings and evolved to what it is now. "Please go to the supermarket and get two bottles of beer. If you see Joe, tell him we are having a party in my house at 6 tomorrow." It took me a few seconds to write that. Imagine I had to paint it.

then why does everyone sketch a picture when trying to convey an idea? text is obviously useful but so is visual information. the complete dismissal of visual programming by text-based programmers is often infuriating. visual programming can provide an immediate indication of structure and dataflow, something that text-based languages struggle with. in my mind, the best case scenario is some sort of hybrid, where vis…

They do that when the idea is visual/geometrical or when they use an imaginative visual model to process it, which is one of the things we actually do with text. Text evolved specifically to assist with ideas images(glyphs) could not.

Re: Ask HN: Why does visual programming suck?

#99

Post by ttoinou »

kilon wrote: post #22

Every time a VPL (Visual Programming Language) has gone against a TPL (text programming language) , VPL not only has come out a winner it has massacred its opponent. There are 3 areas that I am aware of that VPLs have appeared a) modular audio synthesis b) 3d graphics c) game programming (a) has been the first with origins back to 1995 , there are like a ton of programming apis for building modular synthesizers , the…

Your example are great but it seems theses VPL succeeded because the data manipulated was constant (sound OR texture OR 3D object) in a whole project

Re: Ask HN: Why does visual programming suck?

#100

Post by throwaway_c »

VB6 and (especially) Delphi continue to have many fans. Sadly, there is little effort seemingly being expended in simplifying programming for normal people, so a lot of modern visual environments just haven't taken off, which further reduces incentives for investment in the field, and leads to them being (correctly) perceived as crippled and unsound.

Also high-mean IQ dev outfits are likely to produce tools for people like themselves. "Cognitive empathy" is not going to be a strong point for the framework creators at Google or Facebook. Microsoft seems to have quietly abandoned Lightswitch, which was their last high-profile attempt in this space.

Finally market forces mean that working developers have no incentive to adopt simpler technologies, so there is no pressure on vendors to simplify things either.

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