Live data from Hacker News

My Family’s Slave

theatlantic.com

301–310 of 645 posts

Re: My Family’s Slave

#301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm objecting to your sentence, saying it's objectively false. Whether or not training another human being is ethical or not is another argument (e.g. children). A dog needs to be taught what is acceptable behavior and what is not acceptable behavior. If you have somebody living with you, they need to be educated on what they can and cannot do. And since dogs and human are pack animals, you need to enforce the idea o…

I understand what you're saying, but his implication is that dogs do not have to be taught not to aspire to be better than dog-status. They cannot be any more than dogs. This is clarified by using an inanimate object (wrench) as a the other example. Human beings though have to be molded in order to keep their 'place'. They can even aspire to want to be things that they cannot achieve, such as my never ending desire t…

That is also objectively false.

Often, dogs will try to be part of the family and try to assert dominance over family members, especially younger, more timid children. They're aspiring to be a higher place in the pack than they should be, and they need to be trained in the fact that they're objectively and necessarily not equal to any human being.

When a dog ever thinks it is the equal of humans, bad things happen, such as bites and euthanasia of the dog, and maulings. That's why you need to train it early as a puppy, that it should never bite/be aggressive to humans, as it'd be harmful to the dog.

The same reasoning can be applied to humans, but cannot be applied to wrenches. Equating wrenches to dogs is another logical dead end - either dogs have feelings and emotions and hopes, otherwise the beating your dog is equivalent to leaving a wrench out in the rain without oil, as both are just tools to you.

Re: My Family’s Slave

#302
post #110
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we probably all know a Lola Not sure what your value of "we" is. I've never met anyone like Lola, and I've never heard a story like this from anyone I know. Then again, I didn't have a housekeeper or know anyone who did. People in my social class were glad to keep the electric bill paid and have a working car to drive.

Boy, I'm so glad that I grew up in a socialist country!

Really? Which one?

Keep in mind that "capitalism with higher taxes" is still capitalism so I'm curious of what of the few really socialist countries you're from.

Re: My Family’s Slave

#303
post #141

Truly remarkable story. One thing that struck me is that Lola did so much of the work of a traditional mother's role: raising the kids, cooking, cleaning, laundry, and even providing emotional support. The mother had to take on a traditional father's role in bringing home an income. And the actual father - well, he did neither role and seemed to just freeload, gamble, abuse, and finally disappear. All of the work in…

It's like ... slavery-lite. Fundamentally what's the difference between Lola's role and a common role of a wife a hundred years ago?* And second – a dangerous question – is it necessarily wrong? I ask not to lead one to believe to think that it isn't, certainly there are aspects which are unquestionable immoral, but is there room for such a social construct? More importantly, answering why not in a robust way could m…

Slavery-lite strikes me as a very unfortunate neologism.

I think you are putting too much emphasis on the formal status of wives a century ago, and not enough on actual social mores, but regardless of whether that is so, it is not much of an argument for what is right.

I am so confident that a robust case against slavery, that is also applicable to this situation, has already been made, that I will take my chances that someone calls "citation needed" on me.

Re: My Family’s Slave

#304
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An argument could be made that the entire capitalist system is built upon uncompensated labor. Just ask your mom. Are you insinuating that in a traditional nuclear family, where a father provides all the money for housing, food, clothing and sundry - the mothers house work constitutes "uncompensated labour"? And that this is the basis of capitalism? What's your humane socialist alternative? Collectivising the childre…

My point is that the systems we've built optimize for things we choose to measure. We're very much measuring and optimizing for money and the kinds of goods and services money can be exchanged for. But to a startling degree we're not choosing to measure all the other hard work that has to get done if we expect humanity to exist beyond one generation. This article just puts it in stark relief for me. All of the work t…

It really is up to society if they want to subsidize child rearing. On one hand, we really don't have a dire need for population - reproductive rates right now are sustainable, and we should be trying to disincentivize those from having kids who cannot afford it. They are very expensive and time consuming.

On the other hand, people have kids anyway, and then the children suffer when the parents cannot afford them (in either money or time with them, as is the case of most two income households). It isn't a black and white moral situation though, because you don't want to put people in the state of mind that having children can be profitable.

Re: My Family’s Slave

#305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One reason is I almost never hear from this friend since his relocation to another part of the world. Another is they have enough issues going on, personal issues requiring a lot of work, and being told they are a slave owner would not help. Perhaps most importantly my friend is not the direct slave owner, if that is indeed the relationship. It's my friend's dad, a guy I've barely even met. Perhaps if he was around,…

You understand that you are now complicit in her abuse, yes? You understand that you are an accomplice to this crime?

> You understand that you are now complicit in her abuse, yes? You understand that you are an accomplice to this crime?

FFS, you literally know next to nothing about the situation. Why do you feel like you're in a position to self righteously adjudicate him as being a criminal? None of us, not even lordnacho himself, know enough about his friend's housekeeper to legitimately make claims like that (or casually throw around terms like slave).

Seriously, the housekeeper's situation may not be too far off from the archetypal startup employee working 18 hour days and sleeping under his desk. None of us know, and none of us should claim to know.

Re: My Family’s Slave

#306
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know how common it is in the Philippines, but it's very common in rich parts of China and Taiwan [0]. Although they probably do get paid something and have freedom, the situations are very similar. Dropped into a location without the ability to speak the language or financial resources to escape. [0] https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00EHNSDKK/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?...

A friend of mine has talked about the situation in other island nations nearby where some will have young staff; males as drivers, gardening, running errands, and females for cooking, cleaning and sex. I imagine there would be a serious power imbalance with that last item.

Here in the Philippines you can hire a young female "housekeeper" who doesn't actually do any housework, if you know what I mean. The job title is for the neighbours and the tsismosas (town gossips).

Re: My Family’s Slave

#307
post #240

Horribly compelling story. When Ulysses S Grants father-in-law died a few years before the civil war, he left them his slave. The Grants were dead broke, Ulysses had failed at farming and the slave was worth a lot of money, they could have worked him or sold him to make the their life instantly better. Instead Ulysses took him to the courthouse and made him a free man. How hard is it to have empathy for others?

While the historical record is clear that Grant freed a slave named William Jones in 1859, Grant's father-in-law, Frederick Dent, died in 1873 at the White House (Grant was president at the time). It is clear that Jones was previously owned by Dent, but when and how Grant acquired him from his father-in-law, as well as Grant's motivations for freeing him are not known. See http://www.snopes.com/confederate-history-sl…

Interesting correction, thanks.

It appears that Jones worked on Dent's farm with Grant, so maybe he freed him when the farm failed?

Re: My Family’s Slave

#308
post #235
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Abuse is rampant in Singapore as well though. For example, if a maid becomes pregnant, they have to leave Singapore immediately and the employer gets fined -- so it's common to lock them in the apartment 24/7/365 for however many years their contract is. Legally, they're supposed to have one day a week off, but in practice this is not enforced and the maid has no leverage: many have paid large sums to brokers and nee…

Yes, I've seen families in Malaysia and Singapore that really treated their housekeeper badly. In a lot of cases, they are not allowed to go out of the apartment either because of potential pregnancy or because they are scared of the housekeeper stealing things from them. They bring housekeepers from Indonesia and pay them very little. The housekeepers have to work a lot of hours and are pretty much treated as slaves…

I only can speak for malaysia and yes this issue doesn't get brought up much, it's quite sickening to be honest. What is even more interesting is that most of the housekeepers are hired by the middle class, the same middle class that is wants racial equality in malaysia..

Re: My Family’s Slave

#309
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know how common it is in the Philippines, but it's very common in rich parts of China and Taiwan [0]. Although they probably do get paid something and have freedom, the situations are very similar. Dropped into a location without the ability to speak the language or financial resources to escape. [0] https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00EHNSDKK/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?...

A friend of mine has talked about the situation in other island nations nearby where some will have young staff; males as drivers, gardening, running errands, and females for cooking, cleaning and sex. I imagine there would be a serious power imbalance with that last item.

Ethnically Chinese people are hated in Indonesia and the Philippines.[0] As in, during times of unrest and civil disturbance, there is a lot of murder and rape of Chinese people.

Partly for this reason. The addition of ethnic differences to economic inequality is a volatile mixture.

[0] https://www.amazon.com/World-Fire-Exporting-Democracy-Instab...

Re: My Family’s Slave

#310
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no question in my mind that I would confront anyone I knew engaging in the situation you're describing. Among my circles, injustices always seem to be a third person. Mostly bosses. Boss doesn't give you a day off despite a month of notice. Boss dicks you around on hours or a promised promotion. The people I consider friends are folks I can talk to about morality. I've grown as a person based on the critical…

I wish I could upvote you more. When this story hit HN earlier today, I was taken aback by how so many of the responses basically were of the hand-clasping, oh-what-a-touching-story nature. This is fucking slavery . There is nothing to admire. Treating slaves-in-all-but-name nicer after the fact does not make it any less repellent. One human being owned another, and had final say regarding all aspects of their lives.…

I could try to free the slave, but on the other hand, it might cause a bit of unpleasantness with my friend. So it's six of one, half a dozen of the other!
Post reply on HN