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Uber CEO Plays with Fire

nytimes.com

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Re: Uber CEO Plays with Fire

#111

Post by jakelarkin »

minimaxir wrote: post #55
pdog wrote: post #36

From the article, explained: At the time, Uber was dealing with widespread account fraud in places like China, where tricksters bought stolen iPhones that were erased of their memory and resold. Some Uber drivers there would then create dozens of fake email addresses to sign up for new Uber rider accounts attached to each phone, and request rides from those phones, which they would then accept. Since Uber was handing…

> "to be clear, a # of companies practice 'fingerprinting,' and it is fully breaking the App Store rules. But also very clever fraud detection." https://twitter.com/MikeIsaac/status/856180005977677825

wonder why Mike Issac gave that clarification immediately to his twitter-base but didn't put it in the relevant section?

could it be because the article intentionally glosses over complex details in order to pump a specific narrative ... hmm. \s

Re: Uber CEO Plays with Fire

#112

Post by azinman2 »

jamiek88 wrote: post #73
azinman2 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are quite a bit of SKUs, but not enough to make the phone unique itself. You'd ultimately need something more special to do so, such as the MAC address. It's not clear if such code would work today on the latest iOS version but maybe. They probably used a private API to do so, and that itself was obfuscated in the compiled binary such that apples automatic analysis would fail to catch it.

No, they fingerprint the phone like browser fingerprinting. Unique settings, apps installed etc. Very hard to have a non-unique set up with enough data points.

No? Did you work on this code and know for sure?

Let's look at roughly what's available:

iPhone model (2 orders of magnitude of possibilities)

Device storage -- increases entropy with iPhone model but still not that much

Device name -- easily changeable by scammer, so not enough

iOS version -- changes over time, not great for a long term fingerprint but might help short term

IP address -- short term attribution ok, but not against scammers. People in china have multiple sims very often so even relying on carrier isn't enough

Cell phone carrier -- same as above

Other apps installed -- as of iOS 9 you have to pre-declare what you want to be able to query, and that's subject to App Store review. It does help give a fair bit entropy. This also can change at any moment. But if you're wiping the device constantly, they might not be installing any apps.

In advertising / web, you want to attribute across sites / installs on a short time basis. You have plugins and their unique version numbers, OS versions and all their attributes, browsers version, fonts installed, etc. Way more variation than iPhones.

To defeat scammers erasing their phone constantly it's actually much harder, and likely needs something a bit more unique.

Re: Uber CEO Plays with Fire

#113

Post by pfranz »

rhino369 wrote: post #74
taude wrote: post #18

I really hope Lyft doesn't do anything to screw up, as I've uninstalled Uber and will probably never use the service again. However, I don't see myself going back to regular taxi system as that's even more corrupt and despicable. I just hope Lyft plays the game with a social conscious and makes positive decisions and continues to treat drivers well (most Lyft drivers I talk to say they like driving for Lyft way bette…

>regular taxi system as that's even more corrupt and despicable. The idea that the taxis are corrupt and despicable is 100% Uber/Lyft propaganda. The idea that a bunch of immigrants driving 12 hours a day to support a meager income for their families are a cabal of special interests is ridiculous. Uber and Lyft are better than taxis because of the on demand nature and they are cheaper because of better utilization. B…

> The idea that the taxis are corrupt and despicable is 100% Uber/Lyft propaganda.

I just can't see how that could be said with any seriousness unless you've never used a taxi. I'm not saying Uber/Lyft are without their own faults. I've never really had /that/ much experience with taxis, but on my few interactions encountered in the US:

* (after arriving at the destination) Sorry, my credit card machine is broken. I can drive you to an ATM if you'd like? This is a common taxi scam and many places have laws to protect against it. After arguing they pull out the old slide machine.

* When traveling only the minimum fare distance, "These trips really aren't allowed."

* Use their website to schedule a few days before my flight--nobody shows. Call their dispatch phone number, "Oh, the website never really works. Someone will be there in 40 minutes." A taxi shows up over an hour later.

Re: Uber CEO Plays with Fire

#114

Post by pdog »

hsod wrote: post #110
pdog wrote: post #36

From the article, explained: At the time, Uber was dealing with widespread account fraud in places like China, where tricksters bought stolen iPhones that were erased of their memory and resold. Some Uber drivers there would then create dozens of fake email addresses to sign up for new Uber rider accounts attached to each phone, and request rides from those phones, which they would then accept. Since Uber was handing…

This really doesn't match up with how the conversation/outrage is playing out on Twitter right now. People seem to be interpreting this as "Uber continues to track your location after you have deleted the app," when what really happened seemed to be "If you delete Uber and then reinstall it on the same phone, Uber knows that it's the same phone." See for example this Tweet, with hundreds of retweets and lots of verif…

"A lie will go round the world while truth is pulling its boots on."

C.H. Spurgeon, Gems from Spurgeon (1859)

Re: Uber CEO Plays with Fire

#115

Post by atonse »

blackmarker wrote: post #108

"At a meeting at Mr. Kalanick’s house, and over cartons of Chinese food, he and Mr. Michael hosted Lyft’s president, John Zimmer, who asked for 15 percent of Uber in exchange for selling Lyft. Over the next hour, Mr. Kalanick and Mr. Michael repeatedly laughed at Mr. Zimmer’s audacious request." Did they laugh at him to his face, cause if it was just the two of them...

I hope the Lyft guys are laughing for hours at the self inflicted PR disaster that Uber has earned now.

Re: Uber CEO Plays with Fire

#116

Post by gregshap »

rhino369 wrote: post #74
taude wrote: post #18

I really hope Lyft doesn't do anything to screw up, as I've uninstalled Uber and will probably never use the service again. However, I don't see myself going back to regular taxi system as that's even more corrupt and despicable. I just hope Lyft plays the game with a social conscious and makes positive decisions and continues to treat drivers well (most Lyft drivers I talk to say they like driving for Lyft way bette…

>regular taxi system as that's even more corrupt and despicable. The idea that the taxis are corrupt and despicable is 100% Uber/Lyft propaganda. The idea that a bunch of immigrants driving 12 hours a day to support a meager income for their families are a cabal of special interests is ridiculous. Uber and Lyft are better than taxis because of the on demand nature and they are cheaper because of better utilization. B…

100% Uber/Lyft propaganda?

There's a difference between saying taxi drivers are evil, and saying that the taxi system is a corrupt special interest.

The 'system' is not just drivers, in most large US Cities it's a few concentrated medallion owners, strongly motivated to lobby against diluting their share of the taxi market. Dilution could come from regulatory changes, or just allowing more medallions.

What is a 'special interest' anyway? Medallion owners represented a concentrated minority of the population with strong motivation to push for policies that are neutral or harmful to the majority. But since the harm is spread among the many, and the benefit is concentrated in the few, the few are more organized and willing to expend time and money to achieve their goal. And yup now ride sharing apps are a new special interest.

That's just the political economy. There's also the fact that in many cities the cab titans were operating like corrupt slumlords, while local law enforcement long seemed willfully ignorant.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2016/08/03/fallen-taxi-kin...

Re: Uber CEO Plays with Fire

#117

Post by tyingq »

hsod wrote: post #110
pdog wrote: post #36

From the article, explained: At the time, Uber was dealing with widespread account fraud in places like China, where tricksters bought stolen iPhones that were erased of their memory and resold. Some Uber drivers there would then create dozens of fake email addresses to sign up for new Uber rider accounts attached to each phone, and request rides from those phones, which they would then accept. Since Uber was handing…

This really doesn't match up with how the conversation/outrage is playing out on Twitter right now. People seem to be interpreting this as "Uber continues to track your location after you have deleted the app," when what really happened seemed to be "If you delete Uber and then reinstall it on the same phone, Uber knows that it's the same phone." See for example this Tweet, with hundreds of retweets and lots of verif…

That's true, but there's a bit of live by the sword, die by the sword here. Uber is no stranger to the power of propaganda with their campaigns on the sharing economy, unions, regulations, etc.

Re: Uber CEO Plays with Fire

#118

Post by parthdesai »

pdog wrote: post #114
hsod wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This really doesn't match up with how the conversation/outrage is playing out on Twitter right now. People seem to be interpreting this as "Uber continues to track your location after you have deleted the app," when what really happened seemed to be "If you delete Uber and then reinstall it on the same phone, Uber knows that it's the same phone." See for example this Tweet, with hundreds of retweets and lots of verif…

"A lie will go round the world while truth is pulling its boots on." C.H. Spurgeon, Gems from Spurgeon (1859)

Well Churchill, of all people would know it pretty well.

Re: Uber CEO Plays with Fire

#119

Post by odonnellryan »

rhino369 wrote: post #74
taude wrote: post #18

I really hope Lyft doesn't do anything to screw up, as I've uninstalled Uber and will probably never use the service again. However, I don't see myself going back to regular taxi system as that's even more corrupt and despicable. I just hope Lyft plays the game with a social conscious and makes positive decisions and continues to treat drivers well (most Lyft drivers I talk to say they like driving for Lyft way bette…

>regular taxi system as that's even more corrupt and despicable. The idea that the taxis are corrupt and despicable is 100% Uber/Lyft propaganda. The idea that a bunch of immigrants driving 12 hours a day to support a meager income for their families are a cabal of special interests is ridiculous. Uber and Lyft are better than taxis because of the on demand nature and they are cheaper because of better utilization. B…

Taxi's have regulations and laws they have to follow. It isn't a perfect system, but you know there are certain precautions Taxi drivers are taking.

You have a different kind of safety with Uber. There are always tradeoffs.

Re: Uber CEO Plays with Fire

#120

Post by odonnellryan »

valuearb wrote: post #104
rhino369 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>regular taxi system as that's even more corrupt and despicable. The idea that the taxis are corrupt and despicable is 100% Uber/Lyft propaganda. The idea that a bunch of immigrants driving 12 hours a day to support a meager income for their families are a cabal of special interests is ridiculous. Uber and Lyft are better than taxis because of the on demand nature and they are cheaper because of better utilization. B…

The immigrants driving 12 hours a day are paying hella rents to the taxi companies for that privilege. There is a reason NYC taxi medallions were being traded for over $1M, because the taxi companies lobbied to limit the supply of taxis and were making massive profits leasing those medallions to drivers.

There are other reasons why you'd want to limit the number of drivers. It is not good for NYC to have too many taxis, or too many Uber or Lyft drivers.

There should be enough, but there is a point where there are too many people driving through the streets of NYC looking to pick up riders.

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