Scotland to seek second independence referendum • Hacker News Board

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#231

Post by agumonkey » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 4:12 PM UTC

sambeau wrote: post #146

Someone1234 wrote: post #100

Disclaimer: I'm English. One can hardly blame them. I was a unionist during the first referendum simply because I thought we were stronger together and felt that the Scottish made the UK as a whole more liberal (which, to be clear, is a GOOD thing). But after Brexit one cannot blame or criticise them for wanting to leave. I want to leave too! If their choice is being part of a fairly progressive EU or a conservative/…

Disclaimer: I'm a child of English parents who was born in Wales but grew up in Scotland. I have Scottish and English children, in-laws and cousins. I have a family home in Scotland but I currently live in England. My children live in England and Scotland. Some of us live in Italy. What a fucking mess of a total fucking disaster. None of this needed to happen and it's a total nightmare for me and my family. If this g…

I see some negative news about brexit plan execution, so I still think it might be possible to revert or avoid a total crash (if it occurs, maybe the world has some cards up his sleeves and things will reorder nicely) ?

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#232

Post by kpil » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 4:12 PM UTC

BjoernKW wrote: post #76

edblarney wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sweden chose not to join the Euro. Oddly - European nations that don't use the Euro are generally much better off: Norway (though not EU), Denmark, Sweden, UK. In hindsight, the UK's decision to not join the Euro is widely accepted as smart. The Euro is effectively a 'hard Germany currency' that has entrapped the periphery of Europe into a monetary system that massively favours the Germans. Maybe it could have worked…

This is not entirely true. The Netherlands, Austria, Luxembourg, Belgium and France for example fare just fine with the Euro. The problems you mentioned (and some non-Euro countries being better off) are caused by structural problems in those countries, which are only tangentially related to the common currency. From an economic point of view those countries probably shouldn't have adopted the Euro so quickly in the…

France is a bank crisis waiting to happen though...

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#233

Post by cmdkeen » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 4:15 PM UTC

falsedan wrote: post #219

cmdkeen wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that the European Central Bank doesn't act as a lender of last resort for individual banks (and really doesn't like being for the Eurozone, cf Greece) it isn't going to step in to cover Scotland. So you're either looking at another Government or perhaps one of the massive re-insurers, can you imagine what the insurance premiums would be on that arrangement? The much more likely alternative is that the Bank of S…

> the European Central Bank doesn't act as a lender of last resort for individual banks I do think they'd buy independent Scottish treasury bonds & then the independent Scottish government can use the proceeds for emergency lending. Isn't this how the German banks are covered?

If Scotland were in the Eurozone yes. Getting them to do that while applying to join, while also potentially giving none too subtle nods and winks that you don't actually intend ever adopting the Euro is stretching credibility.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#234

Post by pjc50 » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 4:17 PM UTC

zigzigzag wrote: post #217

pjc50 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The easy trump card to play is the fact that Spain and others (Belgium) will not allow Scotland to join the EU, even if they do - it will take years. That argument played a lot better before the Brexit vote. The choice is now between "definitely out of Europe, possibly on bad terms" versus "hopefully rejoining Europe, possibly with interim deal". Personally I expect Spain to accept an independent Scotland as levera…

The UK isn't "threatening to expel financial services from London". That is some quite astonishing reality reversal. The EU is threatening to legally force people to move to Europe from the UK if they want to continue selling services there. Neither the UK nor the financial services industry wants that, for obvious reasons. If it happens, it'll be the EU doing it, not a British government.

.. but the British government is the one triggering Brexit. It's a one-player game of chicken. The UK government has had plenty of options to say they want to try to retain financial passporting.

"Starting a chain of events which will likely lead to financial services having to move out of London", then.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#235

Post by zeveb » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 4:18 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #86

byefruit wrote: post #6

What a legacy Cameron has left. Alienation of our nearest neighbours and the likely dissolution of the Union. It's also looking likely that Brexit will cause problems for the Northern Ireland peace arrangement.

It's incredible when you consider Queen Elizabeth's reign. From visiting India as a British realm to overseeing the dissolution of the Union itself.

Unless she's been very active behind the scenes, and we find out later, I think she'll go down in history as one of the worst British monarchs ever. Even as a constitutional monarch, she has influence and she has some reserve powers, but from what I've seen she hasn't used any of it to prevent the disasters of the past half-century of British history. Yes, if she exercised some of her power it'd probably spark a constitutional crisis and she'd probably be overthrown — but that's her job, to act as a last-chance sanity check when the people, the aristocracy and the government itself have all gone mad.

It's very, very sad. She seems like a nice lady, but she has (apparently) been extremely ineffectual.

Like I noted, maybe someday we'll discover that she's actually been extremely involved, preventing one disaster after another, and that Britain's fall would have been much worse without her expert guidance. I don't expect that's the case, but maybe it'll happen.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#236

Post by fnord123 » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 4:20 PM UTC

falsedan wrote: post #220

fnord123 wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Independence wouldn't change that, except that the names on the notes would have to be changed from Pounds Stirling . Pounds Sterling. Stirling is a city in Scotland.

wow, a typo the joke is they'd also have to be changed from that

Yeah, maybe they'll rename it pounds stirling. :)

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#237

Post by falsedan » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 4:20 PM UTC

rukittenme wrote: post #224

timthelion wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh the poor English :( technically that would be sectarian and not racist, as both Scotts and English bellong to the same race.

Celts and Anglo-Saxons are not the same race.

They would technically be considered "people" of the same race, but also Scotland hasn't been Celtic for a long time!

The original inhabitants of Great Britain were Brythonic + Pictish (of the Celts), but in Scotland they were squeezed out by the Gaelic (also of the Celts) tribes (including the Scotti) crossing the Irish Sea into the west, the Norse crossing the North Sea and expanding into the isles from the north, and a rotating cast of invaders from the south: Romans, Danes (the Angles of Jutland and the Saxons), Normans (the Norse by way of Brittany in France), and English (a strange hodge-podge of remnants of various invaders).

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#238

Post by ruairidhwm » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 4:21 PM UTC

mezod wrote: post #230

ruairidhwm wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spain is less of an argument now as Catalonia have always been a region of Spain whereas Scotland is its own nation which joined the UK through the Act of Union. It's a different legal precedent. Also, I imagine that Spain will do what they're encouraged to do by thE EC considering the budgetary reliance.

wait what? Catalonia has always been what? Nope.

Hey - if I'm wrong then I'd love to be corrected as I'm currently labouring under the impression that Catalonia is legally a region of Spain and has been part of Spain since around 1469 which was when the concept of what we now know as Spain started.

Not at all wanting a flame-war etc but if I'm wrong then I'd really like to know! :)

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#239

Post by falsedan » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 4:23 PM UTC

cmdkeen wrote: post #233

falsedan wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the European Central Bank doesn't act as a lender of last resort for individual banks I do think they'd buy independent Scottish treasury bonds & then the independent Scottish government can use the proceeds for emergency lending. Isn't this how the German banks are covered?

If Scotland were in the Eurozone yes. Getting them to do that while applying to join, while also potentially giving none too subtle nods and winks that you don't actually intend ever adopting the Euro is stretching credibility.

OK! I understand your point.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#240

Post by zigzigzag » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 4:24 PM UTC

matthewmacleod wrote: post #75

a_name wrote: post #65

However, I think it's now almost certain that if Scotland does vote to become independent they will be forced to take the Euro as currency. Is Spain now willing to allow them into the EU or will they veto their membership application because of their issues with Catalonia? Still seems like racist SNP are still in denial

Hello, please remain respectful. It's fine to disagree with the the SNP's policies, but calling them 'racist' is clearly outside the bounds of reason. To answer your specific point, my understanding is that general noise from Spain is that a Scottish application for EU membership would not be vetoed.

It isn't 'racism' technically, you're right. Perhaps more like a mild form of bigotry. You might strongly disagree, but the SNP routinely phrases independence like this:

Scotland will be "fairer" if it is independent i.e. the English who keep outvoting us are nasty and "unfair" by nature.

There are lots of quotes from people like Salmond and Sturgeon along those lines. What they mean is "we disagree with the dominant political viewpoint in England" but what they say is that the English are morally defective and the Scots, morally superior. That's merely irritating when it's a left wing/right wing party political campaign, as people can change their political party quite easily. When it's phrased in terms of ethnic origin, that crosses the line.