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Scotland to seek second independence referendum

bbc.com

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Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#181

Post by ruairidhwm »

cmdkeen wrote: post #174
ruairidhwm wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It'd be very easy to set up parallel legal structures in Scotland and then just transfer the business up. You possibly wouldn't even need to relocate.

True but it is a different legal system. London is used because everyone knows and likes the English legal system and the English courts. Scottish courts and the Scottish legal system aren't worse, just different. Wanting to do business with a contract using Scots law is a bit like trying to raise VC while incorporated in Maine. Nothing wrong with it, just not the way everyone is used to. The Scottish legal community…

Agreed - I'm a Scots-qualified lawyer :P

It's true that there's a lot of advantages to English laws but we see a lot of companies using Scotland anyway for its Scottish Limited Partnerships which have a lot of tax/ownership advantages.

I'm sure there will be considerable debate and potential change to our commercial law if independence goes ahead. To my mind it's a huge commercial opportunity.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#182

Post by icu »

philipov wrote: post #48
biofox wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the point of internal colonialism: it might have been true once, but certainly not true today. All of the countries in the union have seats in Westminster, dedicate ministers and committees, as well as their own devolved parliaments. I'd say things are much worse for counties in the North of England, than for the other countries in the UK. The nature of democracy means the majority rules, which will always be prob…

The 200 year-old idea that democracy means majority rules is rather naive. Naive in the sense that it assumes a simplistic model of political dynamics where every voter is an independent agent, and this assumption has not stood up well to history. The impact of political movements and demogogues, as well as economic coercion of the working classes, has shown that it is in fact possible for a democracy to be controlle…

Hi philipov... I would be really interested to hear your proposed solution.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#183

Post by Snowdax »

NachoDuck wrote: post #60
nailer wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In fact, some member states are opposed to it. Which ones? Generally the EU wants more stable democracies to hold up the others.

Primarily Spain I think? I couldn't find a good source saying they would block the membership outright but there's an article here which includes some details about which states are opposed the EU negotiating potential membership for Scotland as part of Brexit (I realise that's slightly different to Scotland joining as an independent nation). 'Brexit: Spain and France oppose Scotland EU talks' - http://www.bbc.co.uk/…

Spain has just come out last week and said that they are OK with Scotland joining the EU as long as England has signed of on Scotland leaving the UK first and the independence process being completed. The implication being that it would not set a Catalonian precedent as Spain would be inclined to never sign off on Catalonia leaving in the first place.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#184

Post by ruairidhwm »

gumby wrote: post #170
ruairidhwm wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine Spain will do as directed by the EC given that the Catalonia argument isn't analagous to Scotland. I'd strongly disagree with your comment about the SNP being racist but obviously it's a sensitive subject. I view it as being about getting the right deal for Scotland.

> given that the Catalonia argument isn't analagous to Scotland. Can you expand? They seem quite similar to me (but I have no close interest in either, so my view may be simplistic). Very much not trying to start a flame war here, just curious as your comment surprised me.

Sure thing!

So Catalonia has always been a region of Spain whereas Scotland is a sovereign nation which consented to joining the UK through the Act of Union. It's only part of the UK by a statute rather than inherently being part of the 'country'.

That's why Britain is referred to politically as the United Kingdom as it's a union of countries.

So for Catalonia to get independence, they have a much tougher argument as they're not a sovereign entity and it'd be much closer to a secession rather than Scotland pulling out of a treaty as would be the case here.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#185

Post by Gravityloss »

sambeau wrote: post #146
Someone1234 wrote: post #100

Disclaimer: I'm English. One can hardly blame them. I was a unionist during the first referendum simply because I thought we were stronger together and felt that the Scottish made the UK as a whole more liberal (which, to be clear, is a GOOD thing). But after Brexit one cannot blame or criticise them for wanting to leave. I want to leave too! If their choice is being part of a fairly progressive EU or a conservative/…

Disclaimer: I'm a child of English parents who was born in Wales but grew up in Scotland. I have Scottish and English children, in-laws and cousins. I have a family home in Scotland but I currently live in England. My children live in England and Scotland. Some of us live in Italy. What a fucking mess of a total fucking disaster. None of this needed to happen and it's a total nightmare for me and my family. If this g…

Doesn't Scotland get a lot of money from oil and gas?

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#186

Post by informatimago »

BjoernKW wrote: post #76
edblarney wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sweden chose not to join the Euro. Oddly - European nations that don't use the Euro are generally much better off: Norway (though not EU), Denmark, Sweden, UK. In hindsight, the UK's decision to not join the Euro is widely accepted as smart. The Euro is effectively a 'hard Germany currency' that has entrapped the periphery of Europe into a monetary system that massively favours the Germans. Maybe it could have worked…

This is not entirely true. The Netherlands, Austria, Luxembourg, Belgium and France for example fare just fine with the Euro. The problems you mentioned (and some non-Euro countries being better off) are caused by structural problems in those countries, which are only tangentially related to the common currency. From an economic point of view those countries probably shouldn't have adopted the Euro so quickly in the…

We don't fare just fine with the Euro. By having fixed exchange rates between countries, the only remaining economic variable that can be adjusted, is employment. (It doesn't matter if it's public or private employment). This is why the EU tells France and other countries to reduce the number of public employees, and why France has been losing one 1000-employee enterprise every day since the introduction of the Euro.

And the countries you listed are not the only ones in the Euro, think about how Spain, Portugal, Italy and Greece are faring with the Euro! It's worse than a war!

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#187

Post by RoboPlumber »

rwmj wrote: post #160
sambeau wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer: I'm a child of English parents who was born in Wales but grew up in Scotland. I have Scottish and English children, in-laws and cousins. I have a family home in Scotland but I currently live in England. My children live in England and Scotland. Some of us live in Italy. What a fucking mess of a total fucking disaster. None of this needed to happen and it's a total nightmare for me and my family. If this g…

Part of the hippocratic oath is "first do no harm". We could usefully extend that to politicians. The UK government has, in 7 or 2 years depending on how you count, set the UK on a path to destruction -- and it was all very predictable.

Ah, brilliant idea! Politicians and voters just shouldn't be allowed to make bad choices. Why had no one thought of this yet?

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#188

Post by krona »

JamesMcMinn wrote: post #159
krona wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/ruth-davidson-overtake... From mid-september 2016. Couldn't find a more recent poll.

It's probably worth noting that the Scotsman has historically backed the Union and their audience are very pro-union, and generally pro conservative. As I understand it, the poll which they based that article on didn't even ask the same question for each of the leaders, so the final results can't be seriously compared.

The poll was by Ipsos MORI, but I guess you already knew that.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#189

Post by jcranmer »

Gravityloss wrote: post #185
sambeau wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer: I'm a child of English parents who was born in Wales but grew up in Scotland. I have Scottish and English children, in-laws and cousins. I have a family home in Scotland but I currently live in England. My children live in England and Scotland. Some of us live in Italy. What a fucking mess of a total fucking disaster. None of this needed to happen and it's a total nightmare for me and my family. If this g…

Doesn't Scotland get a lot of money from oil and gas?

North Sea wells are declining.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#190

Post by dagenleg »

pjc50 wrote: post #173
ceejayoz wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is also a wonderful bargaining chip for the EU to play against Theresa May in negotiating the terms of the UK's exit. Yup. "You lot can leave, but we'll take Scotland. Your choice."

Not to mention Gibraltar - everyone's overlooked this tiny rock, but Gibraltar is entirely dependent on EU freedom of movement and voted very heavily remain. It's not a coincidence that there was a Gibraltar diplomatic mission to the SNP conference, although I'm not entirely clear what they wanted other than solidarity against Brexit. Maybe Spain would let in Scotland and claim Gibraltar as their own?

Why would they claim it as their own if the population is not Spanish?
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