Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Is java dead for startups?

news.ycombinator.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 101 posts

Re: Is java dead for startups?

#51

Post by matrix »

yesimahuman wrote: post #25
scottdw wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The benefits of dynamic languages are not their speed, its the rapid prototyping and interactivity they provide once the prototype has been designed it can be implemented for speed in any lanuage providing the features you need.

Well, then I disagree that after two years of really using Python for everything, that I've been much more productive than with Java. I bet I spent a good chunk of that time debugging errors at run time which would have been caught at compile time with Java. Of course that is a non-scientific anecdote and there are times that the REPL is just awesome (especially for web app development).

This has been my experience too. Currently I like Python for quickly banging out web apps, and Java for building the back end stuff.

Sure, Java has some baggage, but it has a lot of benefits too, such as much better tools for deployment, performance profiling, libraries galore, the JVM, and more. I find it's often the best tool for the job when there's heavy lifting to be done.

Re: Is java dead for startups?

#52

Post by KERMIT »

mindcrime wrote: post #50
10ren wrote: post #16

It's funny, one initial selling point for Java was as a rapid prototyping language. Because back then it was, relatively speaking. I think in the big picture of a increasing speed supply (courtesy Mr Moore, for cheap cycle farms and cache; but also JIT compilation techniques), and comparatively fixed user speed demand (a gui only needs to be fast enough; network latency swamps many other delays), Java is now much fas…

> Another aspect is that many cool new things are happening > in languages other than Java - they have more interesting > tools (eg. Sinatra), and more interesting energy in the > community, because they attract those crazy, eager, > young, passionate, enthusiastic early adopters. Of all the comparisons I've heard, this is one I'd say I'm dubious about. There is still a LOT of activity in the Java space, and lots of…

Most of the projects you just listed are several years old, and some go back more than five years. That's not exactly "new" when it comes to computing.

Re: Is java dead for startups?

#53

Post by [deleted] »

yesimahuman wrote: post #5

Born again Java fan here. I took a diversion into languages like Python (which I still heavily use), but now I wish I had just used Java in the first place. Once you turn a program from a 2 hour long run-time down to < 10 minutes (my Lucene vs PyLucene experience), you don't really see the benefit of using Python anymore. Plus I've realized that I prefer static typing.

[deleted]

Re: Is java dead for startups?

#54

Post by strlen »

minalecs wrote: post #46
mindcrime wrote: post #44

I agree with what a number of others have said here: Java isn't ideal for front-end web stuff, but it still has a lot of uses for low level data processing and back-end work. Also, the JVM is a great platform, and you can target it with any number of languages: Groovy, Clojure, Scala, Nice, JRuby, Jython, etc. Personally I'm using Groovy on Grails for the web front-end part(s) of my current project, and even using Gr…

another groovy on grails fan here... I wish more people would give it a try.. its surprisingly expressive like ruby or python , scales with the JVM, backing of all currently java libs, and great web framework like rails.

This may sound ignorant, but if you're going to use another JVM language, why not use JRuby (if you want to stick with a Smalltalk/Modula-3 derivative), Clojure (if you like Lisp and want STM) or Scala (if you want the static type checking, speed, built in support in IntelliJ)?

This is a serious question: several people I respect (who are smarter than me and thus well capable of learning new languages) are using Groovy for their projects and I am wondering why?

Re: Is java dead for startups?

#55

Post by sigzero »

CCs wrote: post #37
yesimahuman wrote: post #5

Born again Java fan here. I took a diversion into languages like Python (which I still heavily use), but now I wish I had just used Java in the first place. Once you turn a program from a 2 hour long run-time down to < 10 minutes (my Lucene vs PyLucene experience), you don't really see the benefit of using Python anymore. Plus I've realized that I prefer static typing.

I guess this is the reason why Scala gets a lot of attention: same speed as Java (on JVM), fully compatible with Java, it has static typing, and it's productive like RoR or Python. BTW, both the Java (javac) and Scala compilers were written by the same person.

I have not read where Scala is the same speed, citation?

Re: Is java dead for startups?

#56

Post by jonah »

michaelfairley wrote: post #39
TeHCrAzY wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was under the impression that much of googles code base is python.

Most of the core code is C++ or Java, though there is plenty of Python.

I mentioned Java to a high level googler friend and his instant response was: Java == Slow.

Re: Is java dead for startups?

#57

Post by strlen »

rbanffy wrote: post #47
10ren wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe the static typing - harder to change, so you try to get it right.

Not sure if it's only that - the static typing is more or less cared for by the IDEs and their refactoring tools. I would like some Java developer to chime in on this.

I think it comes from a too-literal understanding of design patterns. E.g., for the factory pattern the common practice (outside of some well designed APIs e.g., google collections) the common practice is:

  public class Image {
    public Image(byte[] data) {
      // create the image from byte array 
    }
  }
 
  public class ImageFactory {
    public Image createImage(File file) throws IOException {
      // read data then create an image
    }
  }
vs.

  public Image {
    // the same constructor, but then ...
    public static Image open(File file) throws IOException {
      // Do the same thing as factory would do
    }
  }
What's the advantage of the first approach, provided there's no per-instance state (and thus reason not to just use a static factory method) within the ImageFactory class?

Re: Is java dead for startups?

#58

Post by mindcrime »

KERMIT wrote: post #52
mindcrime wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Another aspect is that many cool new things are happening > in languages other than Java - they have more interesting > tools (eg. Sinatra), and more interesting energy in the > community, because they attract those crazy, eager, > young, passionate, enthusiastic early adopters. Of all the comparisons I've heard, this is one I'd say I'm dubious about. There is still a LOT of activity in the Java space, and lots of…

Most of the projects you just listed are several years old, and some go back more than five years. That's not exactly "new" when it comes to computing.

Yeah, but they're all being actively developed, so I'm not sure how much it matters when the project was originated. And that was just "off the cuff" of stuff I use or am interested in. There's other stuff out there as well.

Anyway, I'm not arguing that Java is the most active in this regard, just that this particular criticism - of all the ones one could level - is, in my humble opinion, relatively weak.

Re: Is java dead for startups?

#59

Post by DenisM »

dstainer wrote: post #26

I agree with a couple of the posters, I think the JVM is the core piece of technology to take away from the Java ecosystem. Especially as more languages can compile byte code to run on it. That being said Java still plays a very big role in backend systems and don't forget that some important backend tools i.e. Hadoop and Cassandra are written in java. So I wouldn't write it off just yet. Derek http://nosqldatabases.…

I frown upon your drive-by self promotion

Re: Is java dead for startups?

#60

Post by SkyMarshal »

jonah wrote: post #56
michaelfairley wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the core code is C++ or Java, though there is plenty of Python.

I mentioned Java to a high level googler friend and his instant response was: Java == Slow.

By the standards of a high level googler, probably all languages but C and Ocaml are slow.
Post reply on HN