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Is java dead for startups?

news.ycombinator.com

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Re: Is java dead for startups?

#21

Post by amalcon »

It seems to me the big benefit of Java is interoperability with other JVM languages like Scala and Clojure (or Jython or JRuby). This is much like the benefit you get from learning C when you work in a language with a good C-based foreign function interface (Python, Ruby, OCaml, etc). You can build most of your application in the more dynamic language, but fall back on the static language for the elements it works better for (high-performance, system-related, or interfacing with a library designed for the other language).

The advantage Java has over C is that, in that comparison, Java is really nice to work with.

Re: Is java dead for startups?

#22

Post by Zak »

yesimahuman wrote: post #5

Born again Java fan here. I took a diversion into languages like Python (which I still heavily use), but now I wish I had just used Java in the first place. Once you turn a program from a 2 hour long run-time down to < 10 minutes (my Lucene vs PyLucene experience), you don't really see the benefit of using Python anymore. Plus I've realized that I prefer static typing.

Speed is a bad reason to choose Java or other less expressive languages. There are many more expressive languages with speed comparable to Java, including but not limited to Haskell, Common Lisp, Scheme, Clojure, Scala and several ML variants. Some of these run on the JVM and some offer static typing. It looks as though Psyco and LuaJIT compare well to Java in microbenchmarks as well.

Re: Is java dead for startups?

#23

Post by 10ren »

rbanffy wrote: post #20

IMHO, Java lends itself to overengineering. I am not sure why, but Java makes it very tempting to try to nail the design right before you know what you are designing.

Maybe the static typing - harder to change, so you try to get it right.

Re: Is java dead for startups?

#24

Post by rufugee »

If you want a java-based framework coupled with Rails' productivity, go through the play framework's screencast and documentation (http://www.playframework.org/documentation/1.0.2.1/home). It's the only java framework I've found that excites me about development, and if you know Rails, you really know play. It's that similar.

Edit: oh, and also many, many times faster.

Re: Is java dead for startups?

#25

Post by yesimahuman »

scottdw wrote: post #15
yesimahuman wrote: post #5

Born again Java fan here. I took a diversion into languages like Python (which I still heavily use), but now I wish I had just used Java in the first place. Once you turn a program from a 2 hour long run-time down to < 10 minutes (my Lucene vs PyLucene experience), you don't really see the benefit of using Python anymore. Plus I've realized that I prefer static typing.

The benefits of dynamic languages are not their speed, its the rapid prototyping and interactivity they provide once the prototype has been designed it can be implemented for speed in any lanuage providing the features you need.

Well, then I disagree that after two years of really using Python for everything, that I've been much more productive than with Java. I bet I spent a good chunk of that time debugging errors at run time which would have been caught at compile time with Java.

Of course that is a non-scientific anecdote and there are times that the REPL is just awesome (especially for web app development).

Re: Is java dead for startups?

#26

Post by dstainer »

I agree with a couple of the posters, I think the JVM is the core piece of technology to take away from the Java ecosystem. Especially as more languages can compile byte code to run on it.

That being said Java still plays a very big role in backend systems and don't forget that some important backend tools i.e. Hadoop and Cassandra are written in java. So I wouldn't write it off just yet.

Derek

http://nosqldatabases.com

Re: Is java dead for startups?

#27

Post by axod »

anatari wrote: post #7

If you're a web shop, IMO, none of the Java web frameworks are ideal for the fast prototyping that most startups need to do on a regular basis. I've hated every Java web framework I've ever worked with and I've used most of the popular ones. Always felt like I was fighting the framework for one reason or another; too verbose, not expressive enough or too tightly structured. There are some decent platforms for the JVM…

Writing your own web framework in Java isn't rocket science ;)

Re: Is java dead for startups?

#28

Post by bootload »

"... Are there theoretical or practical reasons to avoid java in lean startups? ..."

good programmers can probably program in java but given the choice would they use it at home or on side projects?

Re: Is java dead for startups?

#29

Post by silkodyssey »

anatari wrote: post #19
silkodyssey wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The play framework sounds like something you'd be interested in. It abandons the Java conventions for a more rails like experience. http://www.playframework.org/

Yeah, never heard of it until now. If I ever venture out into Java land again, I'll have to give it a better look. How does it compare to Grails?

I've never looked at grails so I can't offer an opinion but I have some links that may be helpful to you. The first is a HN discussion on the play framework and the second a discussion on google groups about the differences between the two frameworks.

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=898738

http://groups.google.com/group/play-framework/browse_thread/...

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