Is java dead for startups?

#1

Post by lean_startup » Tue, May 25, 2010, 10:13 PM UTC

It seems that RoR, PHP & scala are the "hot" languages for startups. I know that java is old, but it lends itself to better engineering IMO. Especially in NYC, where there is a robust market for high- paying java jobs at investment banks, it is hard to find lean startupers.

Are there theoretical or practical reasons to avoid java in lean startups? Any ideas where to find folks at the intersection of java + lean startups + NYC or is it hopeless?

Many thanks!

Cheers, Mike

PS Here is the job description. Applicants and feedback on the description are welcome too: http://www.socialfeet.com/2010/05/got-java-chops/

Re: Is java dead for startups?

#2

Post by stratospark » Tue, May 25, 2010, 10:23 PM UTC

Java the language is stagnating, but the JVM ecosystem is stronger than ever. Attract some smart folk with Scala or Clojure, chances are good that they know Java as well.

Re: Is java dead for startups?

#3

Post by shiftb » Tue, May 25, 2010, 10:25 PM UTC

I use Java primarily in my day job, but usually RoR in my side projects (unless I'm using something else just to pick up the language/skill).

I think the reason you don't see Java in startups as much anymore is that it's neither rapid nor enjoyable to code in. It's also more difficult to deploy in production and more expensive (it requires more RAM to run well in my experience). Continuous deployment is more difficult with Java. Ruby and PHP you can just push code and restart the server almost instantly, Java takes longer.

Java is getting better, but not fast enough, and it's still not a fun language to write in. If I'm going to spend 12 hours coding, I'd like to enjoy it. I can think faster than I can write Java. I'm just able to get more done with other languages.

Re: Is java dead for startups?

#4

Post by shiftb » Tue, May 25, 2010, 10:26 PM UTC

stratospark wrote: post #2

Java the language is stagnating, but the JVM ecosystem is stronger than ever. Attract some smart folk with Scala or Clojure, chances are good that they know Java as well.

Agree that the JVM has a huge future.

Re: Is java dead for startups?

#5

Post by yesimahuman » Tue, May 25, 2010, 10:39 PM UTC

Born again Java fan here. I took a diversion into languages like Python (which I still heavily use), but now I wish I had just used Java in the first place. Once you turn a program from a 2 hour long run-time down to < 10 minutes (my Lucene vs PyLucene experience), you don't really see the benefit of using Python anymore. Plus I've realized that I prefer static typing.

Re: Is java dead for startups?

#6

Post by kiwidamo » Tue, May 25, 2010, 10:42 PM UTC

shiftb wrote: post #3

I use Java primarily in my day job, but usually RoR in my side projects (unless I'm using something else just to pick up the language/skill). I think the reason you don't see Java in startups as much anymore is that it's neither rapid nor enjoyable to code in. It's also more difficult to deploy in production and more expensive (it requires more RAM to run well in my experience). Continuous deployment is more difficul…

You should look at the Play Framework (www.playframework.org) if you'd like to see rapid Java.

Agree that Java is verbose though. Java7 will improve things only slightly.

Re: Is java dead for startups?

#7

Post by anatari » Tue, May 25, 2010, 10:45 PM UTC

If you're a web shop, IMO, none of the Java web frameworks are ideal for the fast prototyping that most startups need to do on a regular basis. I've hated every Java web framework I've ever worked with and I've used most of the popular ones. Always felt like I was fighting the framework for one reason or another; too verbose, not expressive enough or too tightly structured.

There are some decent platforms for the JVM though.

Re: Is java dead for startups?

#8

Post by scumola » Tue, May 25, 2010, 10:47 PM UTC

I work at a startup that's 5 years old and the main app is written in java, but smaller utility pages and apps are written in different languages. I think that the language should fit the problem.

Re: Is java dead for startups?

#9

Post by pan69 » Tue, May 25, 2010, 10:50 PM UTC

stratospark wrote: post #2

Java the language is stagnating, but the JVM ecosystem is stronger than ever. Attract some smart folk with Scala or Clojure, chances are good that they know Java as well.

Being a Java programmer, I find Scala a great language. In my opinion Scala is what Java was supposed to be. Indeed, there is a great future for the JVM out there.

Re: Is java dead for startups?

#10

Post by angelbob » Tue, May 25, 2010, 10:52 PM UTC

stratospark wrote: post #2

Java the language is stagnating, but the JVM ecosystem is stronger than ever. Attract some smart folk with Scala or Clojure, chances are good that they know Java as well.

If you lure people in with Scala or Clojure, then mostly make them program in Java, there's a decent chance they'll feel betrayed and leave sooner.

At least, that's been my experience in places that lure with something glamorous and then do only a very small amount of it.