Is java dead for startups? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is java dead for startups?

#41

Post by strlen » Wed, May 26, 2010, 12:58 AM UTC

jdietrich wrote: post #18

Java is an avowedly corporate language. It isn't built to be fun or elegant or beautiful or especially powerful - it's built to be robust, idiot-proof and flexible. For startups, it just seems very poorly suited for the task. I think most of us would agree that the main advantage any startup has is speed and agility. Java isn't that well suited to rapid development, at least not compared to Python or Ruby. It doesn't…

> If you're trying to build disruptive technology, it seems obvious that you'll be better off using tools that are themselves disruptive.

OTOH, tools themselves don't how disruptive your product is. The iPhone and Android are disruptive, even though Java and Objective-C are as boring as tools get (although the Dalvik VM is quite wicked).

Find the best developers you've worked with and let them choose whichever tools they like. That being said, some of today's best Java developers will likely end up choosing Scala for a project they're building from scratch.

Re: Is java dead for startups?

#42

Post by scheff » Wed, May 26, 2010, 1:12 AM UTC

I'm going to go against the grain by saying I have created a startup in Java. Why Java? Mostly because it's what I'm competent in, not because it's the best "startup" material.

But what I have done is built a framework for a website which I can easily extend. The framework is robust and easy to adapt, so once I get my first startup up and running, I can punch out more in a much quicker turn-around.

I refrained from using a bunch of existing java frameworks/technology to speed up development because I didn't know what the end product would look like and don't like the way frameworks railroad you into a particular solution and prevent you from "thinking outside the box".

So it's very old school - Servlets and JSP.

I achieve agility by now just focussing on delivering new services, and calling those services from either JSP or AJAX calls. This gives me some flexibility in the UX.

I prototype very rapidly to prove that I can do what I want to do, then round off the edges if I'm happy that it's functionality that I want to include in the pool.

I can turn around new functionality in a matter of hours for the most part.

Pete.

Re: Is java dead for startups?

#43

Post by plinkplonk » Wed, May 26, 2010, 1:16 AM UTC

I once wrote some blogposts [1] titled "Why do Startups still use Java? ". I would have thought people who wanted the Java libraries/JVM would have used Scala or Clojure. I understand why people would choose Java over say Python (the need for specific libraries like say Hadoop which have no direct equivalent in Python/C land), but I've not yet understood why they won't use Clojure or Scala once they choose the JVM.

I wasn't (and am not) running a startup so I asked some friends who were (and were using Java). I never got a satisfactory answer (but I got some surprising answers including "If I were 5 years younger I would be using Scala or Clojure but I am very productive in Java and don't have the energy to learn new languages"(!!)). Another interesting answer I got was that their startup focused on business value but needed only average programmers (I am just reporting what people said) and could very well work in Java. All answers tended to "Sure Java is inferior but there are mitigating factors."

Fwiw, If I were to ever start a business where software was a differentiator I would use (a) Scala (if JVM/libraries were important) (b) Haskell + C or (c) use a custom Scheme variant I've been hacking on for many years + C.

I personally think the fears of not getting good programmers if you build in unusual languages is overblown. Even in Bangalore, good programmers would jump at an opportunity to work on interesting systems and interesting languages. I am not looking for work but I would still consider a job offer from a startup using interesting languages very seriously.

[1] I was trying to figure out stuff by writing and so these posts are not polished, but if anyone wants to read, here they are

http://pindancing.blogspot.com/2009/07/why-do-startups-still...

Re: Is java dead for startups?

#44

Post by mindcrime » Wed, May 26, 2010, 1:18 AM UTC

I agree with what a number of others have said here: Java isn't ideal for front-end web stuff, but it still has a lot of uses for low level data processing and back-end work. Also, the JVM is a great platform, and you can target it with any number of languages: Groovy, Clojure, Scala, Nice, JRuby, Jython, etc.

Personally I'm using Groovy on Grails for the web front-end part(s) of my current project, and even using Groovy for some of the "backend'ish" parts just to get through the initial prototype. Grails and Groovy are amazing in terms of developer speed - compared to Java anyway. But since it's all still on the JVM, I can just drop in existing Java libraries and - if, or when - I need to, it'll be fairly easy to transition bits to Java. For my money, it's the best of both worlds at the moment.

Then again, the stuff I'm doing is somewhat "enterprisey" so being on the JVM will probably actually be a selling point down the road.

Re: Is java dead for startups?

#45

Post by krschultz » Wed, May 26, 2010, 1:23 AM UTC

Bug Labs primarily uses Java for their product and Ruby on Rails for their web stuff.

If you are assuming startup == web app, then sure Java is probably dead, in other contexts not so much. Using Java was advantageous for Bug Labs for a number or reasons - among them available open source libraries, widest adoption among customers (their business almost requires customers to touch source code and while Python would have brought in more enthusiasts, Java brings in more enterprise customers and thats where the money is), performance of the JVM, and portability across both the ARM platform and x86 stuff.

(Oh and BL is in NYC)

Re: Is java dead for startups?

#46

Post by minalecs » Wed, May 26, 2010, 1:29 AM UTC

mindcrime wrote: post #44

I agree with what a number of others have said here: Java isn't ideal for front-end web stuff, but it still has a lot of uses for low level data processing and back-end work. Also, the JVM is a great platform, and you can target it with any number of languages: Groovy, Clojure, Scala, Nice, JRuby, Jython, etc. Personally I'm using Groovy on Grails for the web front-end part(s) of my current project, and even using Gr…

another groovy on grails fan here... I wish more people would give it a try.. its surprisingly expressive like ruby or python , scales with the JVM, backing of all currently java libs, and great web framework like rails.

Re: Is java dead for startups?

#47

Post by rbanffy » Wed, May 26, 2010, 1:29 AM UTC

10ren wrote: post #23

rbanffy wrote: post #20

IMHO, Java lends itself to overengineering. I am not sure why, but Java makes it very tempting to try to nail the design right before you know what you are designing.

Maybe the static typing - harder to change, so you try to get it right.

Not sure if it's only that - the static typing is more or less cared for by the IDEs and their refactoring tools.

I would like some Java developer to chime in on this.

Re: Is java dead for startups?

#48

Post by rbanffy » Wed, May 26, 2010, 1:32 AM UTC

Just a minor nitpick: you can use Java the runtime without using Java the language. There is plenty reason to go with Clojure (I am personally dying to try it), Jython, JRuby, Scala and so on.

Re: Is java dead for startups?

#49

Post by strlen » Wed, May 26, 2010, 1:36 AM UTC

plinkplonk wrote: post #43

I once wrote some blogposts [1] titled "Why do Startups still use Java? ". I would have thought people who wanted the Java libraries/JVM would have used Scala or Clojure. I understand why people would choose Java over say Python (the need for specific libraries like say Hadoop which have no direct equivalent in Python/C land), but I've not yet understood why they won't use Clojure or Scala once they choose the JVM. I…

Almost all of the best Java developers that I know (including many who ran Java user groups, podcasts, started well known projects) would choose to use Scala on a new project rather than Java. Given Scala's present state (many performance problems were ironed out in 2.8.0), I simply don't see a single reason not to do so.

It's quite puzzling why the author of the parent article lumps it in with Ruby as the two aren't very similar.

On the other hand, I've seen a friend who's a good (but not great - and he's well aware of it) developer, but is rather entrepreneurial (quit a very well paying job to work on his own project with no external funding) was very surprised after I told him Scala is statically typed. Apparently Java developers almost develop a sort of a Stockholm syndrome that leads them to believe that "if it isn't verbose and limiting, it must be dynamically typed and slow".

Re: Is java dead for startups?

#50

Post by mindcrime » Wed, May 26, 2010, 1:43 AM UTC

10ren wrote: post #16

It's funny, one initial selling point for Java was as a rapid prototyping language. Because back then it was, relatively speaking. I think in the big picture of a increasing speed supply (courtesy Mr Moore, for cheap cycle farms and cache; but also JIT compilation techniques), and comparatively fixed user speed demand (a gui only needs to be fast enough; network latency swamps many other delays), Java is now much fas…

> Another aspect is that many cool new things are happening

> in languages other than Java - they have more interesting

> tools (eg. Sinatra), and more interesting energy in the

> community, because they attract those crazy, eager,

> young, passionate, enthusiastic early adopters.

Of all the comparisons I've heard, this is one I'd say I'm dubious about. There is still a LOT of activity in the Java space, and lots of cool and interesting tools and libraries continue to be written in Java.

Off the top of my head, I'd mention Lucene, Hadoop, Weka, Mahout, Tika, HornetQ, UIMA, GATE, Camel, Jackrabbit, DERI Pipes, etc., etc. This isn't too say that other languages don't also have lots of activity in tools and libraries and frameworks, but I think Java is still in pretty solid shape in this regard.