How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide • Hacker News Board

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#361

Post by FabHK » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 9:29 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #183

chris_wot wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to see them subpoenaed to explain what they were doing. They were deliberately violating the law, and trying to avoid detection just makes things much, much worse. This has got to be illegal.

> This has got to be illegal It doesn't seem that different from Cloudflare et al throwing up CAPTCHAs and blocks when I browse through Tor. Uber was trying to prevent abuse. Until someone identifies themselves as a city official or Uber is put on notice that it is under investigation, I think they are well within their rights to do this.

To be fair, some people at Cloudflare were working on reducing these CAPTCHAs for Tor users, though not sure what the current status is.

https://github.com/gtank/captcha-draft/blob/master/captcha-p...

https://lwn.net/Articles/702399/

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#362

Post by jfoutz » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 9:31 PM UTC

mindcrime wrote: post #311

jfoutz wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. It's genius in a Lex Luthor kind of way. If I understood the full scope of the application, I like to think i'd decline to work on that. It's easy to imagine engineers working on small parts of the system, and never really connecting the dots that the whole point is to evade law enforcement. There's a big difference between keeping secrets for market advantage and to evade the law. In the first case, I want…

It's easy to imagine engineers working on small parts of the system, and never really connecting the dots that the whole point is to evade law enforcement. I would volunteer to work on that project because its whole point is to evade law enforcement. A lot of us (hackers/technologists) take a pretty dim view of arbitrary State regulations and "laws" and are quite happy to work to evade them. Most people who fit the t…

But you know that upfront. You can take appropriate precautions up front. If this is actually illegal, the poor engineers could be looking at conspiracy charges at least.

You know the danger and you're doing it with your eyes open. They probably didn't know, and i'd bet Uber sacrifices a few engineers just like VW did.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#363

Post by dragonwriter » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 9:31 PM UTC

frogpelt wrote: post #256

us0r wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe not a popular opinion but I find this entire thing pure genius. >I couldn't find a good source, but it doesn't seem like that's something a CC merchant would have access to. Do they really get to see that? The first 6 digits of a credit card can identify the issuing bank (BIN number - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payment_card_number ). If you ask your merchant they can readily provide you and up to date list.…

I agree. The article seems to point to Greyball as proof that Uber is being shady. Greyball is just the tool they used to keep from getting caught. The shady part is that they operate in cities were they aren't welcome (by city officials at least, customers and drivers seemed to welcome them with open arms). If Uber operating in Portland is a night burglar, Greyball is his dark clothes and mask.

> Greyball is just the tool they used to keep from getting caught

Using a tool to avoid getting caught is, itself, evidence that one is aware of the impropriety of the action thereby protected.

Many view this kind of awareness as increasing the shadiness of the underlying action.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#364

Post by frgtpsswrdlame » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 9:32 PM UTC

mindcrime wrote: post #354

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But here your problem is not with government but bad government.

I would argue that when you give a subset of a population an institutionalized monopoly on the user of force, you're always going to get bad government eventually. That's why the State should never have the power to do anything that an individual could not justly do. http://bastiat.org/en/the_law.html

>I would argue that when you give a subset of a population an institutionalized monopoly on the user of force, you're always going to get bad government eventually.

Why?

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#365

Post by wavefunction » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 9:33 PM UTC

avn2109 wrote: post #309

austenallred wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would imagine there are people who don't view it as a breach of ethics. And those types are probably more inclined to be working at Uber on the first place. I mean if you really believe the various transportations administrations are corrupt and that the way to solve it is to temporarily disregard the law, then Uber is probably the place to be

I seem to be the minority here, but I don't see how any entity (including Uber) has an obligation to make it easy for the law to ticket them. Anyone who uses e.g. the Waze app to evade speedtraps is similarly guilty of "systematically avoiding the law." Lastly, let me just disclaim that I think Uber is run by assholes and so is the police.

Exactly, if -for example- a police officer tries to pull me over for a traffic infraction, my speeding off and attempts to make it more difficult to ticket me is only a natural and decent personal impulse!

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#366

Post by rrdharan » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 9:33 PM UTC

CaptSpify wrote: post #326

greghendershott wrote: post #127

Not only am I done with Uber, I'm starting to wonder about associates and partners (investors, advisors, marketing partners, etc.) If you're still doing business with Uber in 2017, it's because you don't want to know or you don't care who you're dealing with. Neither reflects well on you. It tells me you have your own very low bar -- your own version of "well we're not as awful as taxis shrug " -- above which anythin…

EDIT: After re-reading your statement, it doesn't appear you meant customers. Leaving my statement below anyway. > If you're still doing business with Uber in 2017, it's because you don't want to know or you don't care who you're dealing with. Or because I don't really have an option. Cabs are still terrible and require me to carry cash which I don't, and lyft doesn't work on my phone.

Curious, what phone are you using where Uber works and Lyft doesn't?

I actually agree with the OPs statement as it applies to customers (at least when there's a reasonable alternative). I live in NYC so it was pretty easy for me - I deleted the app and switched to using Lyft.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#367

Post by blackguardx » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 9:36 PM UTC

mindcrime wrote: post #311

jfoutz wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. It's genius in a Lex Luthor kind of way. If I understood the full scope of the application, I like to think i'd decline to work on that. It's easy to imagine engineers working on small parts of the system, and never really connecting the dots that the whole point is to evade law enforcement. There's a big difference between keeping secrets for market advantage and to evade the law. In the first case, I want…

It's easy to imagine engineers working on small parts of the system, and never really connecting the dots that the whole point is to evade law enforcement. I would volunteer to work on that project because its whole point is to evade law enforcement. A lot of us (hackers/technologists) take a pretty dim view of arbitrary State regulations and "laws" and are quite happy to work to evade them. Most people who fit the t…

How far does your scofflaw streak go? Is this different from adding law enforcement blocking controls to any illegal tech product? Should everyone get to decide what laws to follow?

I think you are describing anarcho-capitalism, not libertarianism.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#368

Post by vonklaus » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 9:37 PM UTC

joe_the_user wrote: post #337

frogpelt wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. The article seems to point to Greyball as proof that Uber is being shady. Greyball is just the tool they used to keep from getting caught. The shady part is that they operate in cities were they aren't welcome (by city officials at least, customers and drivers seemed to welcome them with open arms). If Uber operating in Portland is a night burglar, Greyball is his dark clothes and mask.

Evading the government ability to regulator you through deception is illegal - generally more illegal than whatever it is you're covering up. Government have to work that way. If lying to and evading regulation wasn't illegal, no regulation at all would be possible.

I think it's pretty noble, let's not forget that while people seem to detest Uber, the gov't has a much more terrible track record

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#369

Post by snappyTertle » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 9:37 PM UTC

quirkot wrote: post #70

oculusthrift wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i agree with your point about multinationals but this case is more interesting than that. Uber isn't Coca Cola. They essentially used tactics like this to go from plucky underdog to multinational.

Uber was always too shady to be justifiably plucky

Uber was justifiably shady. They had to get around outdated laws that protects an outdated medium of transportation.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#370

Post by lowbloodsugar » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 9:37 PM UTC

frogpelt wrote: post #256

us0r wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe not a popular opinion but I find this entire thing pure genius. >I couldn't find a good source, but it doesn't seem like that's something a CC merchant would have access to. Do they really get to see that? The first 6 digits of a credit card can identify the issuing bank (BIN number - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payment_card_number ). If you ask your merchant they can readily provide you and up to date list.…

I agree. The article seems to point to Greyball as proof that Uber is being shady. Greyball is just the tool they used to keep from getting caught. The shady part is that they operate in cities were they aren't welcome (by city officials at least, customers and drivers seemed to welcome them with open arms). If Uber operating in Portland is a night burglar, Greyball is his dark clothes and mask.

Dark clothes and a mask have other purposes. And they're passive. This is more like active radar jamming: it sends deliberately false information to government officials, on purpose. Radar jamming is illegal in most states.