How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide • Hacker News Board

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#61

Post by alphonsegaston » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 8:00 PM UTC

hyperbovine wrote: post #10

oculusthrift wrote: post #8

I'm not excusing Uber at all because what they've done is extremely bad in multiple cases but find it strange all these hit pieces are coming out of the wood works. There is a large section of society that hates Uber and will spring at any chance to bring it down. Which is partially what I think happened with the whole #boycottUber thing and the new video of kalanick yelling at the driver. However, the sexism and dys…

This was leaked by their own employees. Including current ones.

Yeah, all these "hit pieces" cooked up by Uber employees because of their ethics are really undermining the case against Uber. /s

If anything, I have greater respect for Uber employees after this series of leaks than I did before.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#62

Post by oculusthrift » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 8:00 PM UTC

maldusiecle wrote: post #24

HorizonXP wrote: post #6

How diabolical! In a world where privacy has been traded away for convenience, it's poetic justice where a startup uses data mining techniques to subvert the government. This is the same government that would have no issues to use the same techniques to spy on its own people for its own motives. I'm neither on Uber nor the government's side in this case, just simply making an observation. The lack of data privacy see…

My perspective is the opposite. In a world where large multinationals have the power to evade the law in a deliberate and systematic way like this, it's easy for governments to claim they need the same kind of power. Things like this are exactly what bureaucrats point to when they make their arguments for a surveillance state. I don't like the US government much, but I like it a lot better than the average multinatio…

i agree with your point about multinationals but this case is more interesting than that. Uber isn't Coca Cola. They essentially used tactics like this to go from plucky underdog to multinational.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#63

Post by frgtpsswrdlame » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 8:00 PM UTC

oculusthrift wrote: post #49

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you don't think this story is "silly stuff" do you? And besides it's not like Uber hasn't also benefitted from illegal recordings: http://www.theverge.com/2016/7/15/12201134/uber-ergo-admit-l...

That story is legitimate and was released in July. My only gripe was that it seems some were holding onto stories like that, or sometimes even trivial stories and are now releasing them to essentialy dogpile.

Don't you think that maybe there's just so much shady crap at Uber that it's flying all over? When Theranos got picked apart, I don't think anybody was sitting on stories, I think they were gleefully publishing them as soon as they got a tip. Perhaps seeing Susan Fowler come forward with her name attached has emboldened other Uber employees who felt like what they were doing was wrong.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#64

Post by throwaway729 » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 8:00 PM UTC

maldusiecle wrote: post #24

HorizonXP wrote: post #6

How diabolical! In a world where privacy has been traded away for convenience, it's poetic justice where a startup uses data mining techniques to subvert the government. This is the same government that would have no issues to use the same techniques to spy on its own people for its own motives. I'm neither on Uber nor the government's side in this case, just simply making an observation. The lack of data privacy see…

My perspective is the opposite. In a world where large multinationals have the power to evade the law in a deliberate and systematic way like this, it's easy for governments to claim they need the same kind of power. Things like this are exactly what bureaucrats point to when they make their arguments for a surveillance state. I don't like the US government much, but I like it a lot better than the average multinatio…

In a world where multinationals have the power to evade the law in a deliberate and systematic way, AND the government uses the same techniques to spy on its own people for its own motives, it's easy for individuals to claim that neither group of entities need this kind of coercive power over others.

Or at least, it should be.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#65

Post by vkou » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 8:00 PM UTC

HorizonXP wrote: post #6

How diabolical! In a world where privacy has been traded away for convenience, it's poetic justice where a startup uses data mining techniques to subvert the government. This is the same government that would have no issues to use the same techniques to spy on its own people for its own motives. I'm neither on Uber nor the government's side in this case, just simply making an observation. The lack of data privacy see…

Yes, because you can totally make a moral equivalence between the NSA, and the bylaw enforcement office of the City of Calgary.

This is like drawing a moral equivalence between an abusive sweatshop and every company in the world. Smash the system, and overthrow the bourgeois!

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#66

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 8:01 PM UTC

HorizonXP wrote: post #6

How diabolical! In a world where privacy has been traded away for convenience, it's poetic justice where a startup uses data mining techniques to subvert the government. This is the same government that would have no issues to use the same techniques to spy on its own people for its own motives. I'm neither on Uber nor the government's side in this case, just simply making an observation. The lack of data privacy see…

[deleted]

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#67

Post by DannyBee » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 8:01 PM UTC

Dangeranger wrote: post #4

Are there legal grounds here for a court decision against Uber based on this? I suppose the answer depends on the nation or state in which this tactic was deployed. This behavior doesn't surprise me based on their strategy of negotiation regarding regulation.

As mentioned above, there are plenty of jurisdictions where, if uber was illegal, this would be textbook obstruction of justice on the part of uber (because uber is deliberately obstructing the investigation of the drivers, who are committing a crime)

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#68

Post by lacampbell » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 8:02 PM UTC

maldusiecle wrote: post #24

HorizonXP wrote: post #6

How diabolical! In a world where privacy has been traded away for convenience, it's poetic justice where a startup uses data mining techniques to subvert the government. This is the same government that would have no issues to use the same techniques to spy on its own people for its own motives. I'm neither on Uber nor the government's side in this case, just simply making an observation. The lack of data privacy see…

My perspective is the opposite. In a world where large multinationals have the power to evade the law in a deliberate and systematic way like this, it's easy for governments to claim they need the same kind of power. Things like this are exactly what bureaucrats point to when they make their arguments for a surveillance state. I don't like the US government much, but I like it a lot better than the average multinatio…

I don't like the US government much, but I like it a lot better than the average multinational. When it comes down to it, we don't have more than our choice of devils.

If I don't like Uber, I can... stop using Uber. What can I do if I don't like the service a state provides - can I opt out and stop paying? No, my only option is to flee - which the state will often try and prevent you doing anyway.

The state is a huge corporation, that will use force to change you for its services, whether they are good or not, or whether you use them or not. Your only option to avoid this involuntary charge s to flee - and the state reserves the right to employ violence to stop you doing even that.

It seems pretty clear to me which is more immoral.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#69

Post by garrettr_ » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 8:02 PM UTC

oculusthrift wrote: post #8

I'm not excusing Uber at all because what they've done is extremely bad in multiple cases but find it strange all these hit pieces are coming out of the wood works. There is a large section of society that hates Uber and will spring at any chance to bring it down. Which is partially what I think happened with the whole #boycottUber thing and the new video of kalanick yelling at the driver. However, the sexism and dys…

I think it's a mistake to interpret the wave of stories about Uber's misbehavior as indicative of a "hit job" or "media bias" against Uber. Courage is contagious, and as people have started to speak out publicly against Uber's abuses, it appears current and former employees are becoming emboldened to share their experiences as well. I hope that this wave of public backlash will demonstrate to Uber, and the tech industry as a whole, that the market is not blind to unethical behavior, and cutthroat competition at the expense of your employees and the law is not necessarily a winning strategy.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#70

Post by quirkot » Fri, Mar 03, 2017, 8:02 PM UTC

oculusthrift wrote: post #62

maldusiecle wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My perspective is the opposite. In a world where large multinationals have the power to evade the law in a deliberate and systematic way like this, it's easy for governments to claim they need the same kind of power. Things like this are exactly what bureaucrats point to when they make their arguments for a surveillance state. I don't like the US government much, but I like it a lot better than the average multinatio…

i agree with your point about multinationals but this case is more interesting than that. Uber isn't Coca Cola. They essentially used tactics like this to go from plucky underdog to multinational.

Uber was always too shady to be justifiably plucky