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How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

nytimes.com

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Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#311

Post by mindcrime »

jfoutz wrote: post #263
us0r wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe not a popular opinion but I find this entire thing pure genius. >I couldn't find a good source, but it doesn't seem like that's something a CC merchant would have access to. Do they really get to see that? The first 6 digits of a credit card can identify the issuing bank (BIN number - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payment_card_number ). If you ask your merchant they can readily provide you and up to date list.…

I agree. It's genius in a Lex Luthor kind of way. If I understood the full scope of the application, I like to think i'd decline to work on that. It's easy to imagine engineers working on small parts of the system, and never really connecting the dots that the whole point is to evade law enforcement. There's a big difference between keeping secrets for market advantage and to evade the law. In the first case, I want…

It's easy to imagine engineers working on small parts of the system, and never really connecting the dots that the whole point is to evade law enforcement.

I would volunteer to work on that project because its whole point is to evade law enforcement. A lot of us (hackers/technologists) take a pretty dim view of arbitrary State regulations and "laws" and are quite happy to work to evade them. Most people who fit the techno-libertarian or cypherpunk mentality would probably feel the same way.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#312

Post by SilasX »

ubernostrum wrote: post #300
SilasX wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article says Uber's legal team approved it: >At least 50 to 60 people inside Uber knew about Greyball, and some had qualms about whether it was ethical or legal. Greyball was approved by Uber’s legal team, headed by Salle Yoo, the general counsel. I (though not a lawyer) assume their reasoning was: "It's legal to use public sources to identify possible law enforcement agents, it's legal to deny services to them.…

Well, that's a bold legal strategy if true -- I wonder why Microsoft simply didn't put it in the Windows license agreement that government users couldn't sue them for antitrust violations! (Uber's real argument seems to be "it violates our terms of service for a government official to try to figure out if we're following the law")

That wouldn't work:

a) exempting themselves from specific laws by EULA generally doesn't work,

b) you can block specific people from a service and even police have to leave when told (barring further e.g. probable cause), but police are under no obligation to honor a general "no police" policy.

It's legal, though, to kick someone off a service because you think they're a cop. (e.g. biker bars that kick people out on that basis)

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#313

Post by mindcrime »

us0r wrote: post #182
SilasX wrote: post #111

It took me about 8 paragraphs in to figure out what Greyball is, so to save you the time: Uber used various data sources to identify which people are likely government officials who are trying to collect incriminating data on them, and then blocks them from the service so they can't be caught in sting operations. But there's a lot in the article that doesn't make sense: >Other techniques included looking at the user’…

Maybe not a popular opinion but I find this entire thing pure genius. >I couldn't find a good source, but it doesn't seem like that's something a CC merchant would have access to. Do they really get to see that? The first 6 digits of a credit card can identify the issuing bank (BIN number - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payment_card_number ). If you ask your merchant they can readily provide you and up to date list.…

Maybe not a popular opinion but I find this entire thing pure genius.

Likewise.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#314

Post by vslira »

trimal wrote: post #172

I think Uber needed such tool because they tried to barge their way in a hostile market. I think people blaming Uber for being unethical should ask question what led them to do such behavior (because of ancient government laws) I'm not defending Uber but I think if they didn't enter market people would have never know what is it.

I second this feeling. Uber may be a terrible company led by terrible people, but they opened the floodgates for a better framework of cab transportation. I hope that sticks (the model, idc about the company)

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#315

Post by frgtpsswrdlame »

snappyTertle wrote: post #270
quirkot wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A corporation is an entity designed to take on risk for the benefit of the few. The state is an entity designed to mitigate risk for the benefit of all, which ends up benefiting the few due to implementation problems

The state is an entity designed to benefit all at the cost of the few, but thanks to the corruption of uneven power, the state ends up benefitting those in power at the cost of those not in power.

But here your problem is not with government but bad government.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#316

Post by bri3d »

SilasX wrote: post #111

It took me about 8 paragraphs in to figure out what Greyball is, so to save you the time: Uber used various data sources to identify which people are likely government officials who are trying to collect incriminating data on them, and then blocks them from the service so they can't be caught in sting operations. But there's a lot in the article that doesn't make sense: >Other techniques included looking at the user’…

You can see the "greyball" tag fields in Exhibit A in this lawsuit filing. It looks like they did some rudimentary device and payment method correlation as well as whitelisting at the database level:

https://www.scribd.com/document/334009796/Spangenberg-Uber-l...

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#317

Post by dnautics »

dredmorbius wrote: post #305
dnautics wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As horrible as Uber is, it hasn't done any extrajudicial drone strikes on civilians, yet.

Plenty of corporations have done similar or eqivalent actions.

OK. No corporation has nuked two cities full of civilians.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#318

Post by artur_makly »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #106
Fede_V wrote: post #39

This is incredibly awful, but not particularly surprising. One of Paul Graham's most read essays is about the qualities that YC looks for in founders ( http://paulgraham.com/founders.html ). In that essay, he specifically discusses 'Naughtiness' as a positive quality, and how it's one of the most important features of potential founders. The problem is that being clever and hacking around a system for curiosity is go…

> Being willing to break dumb rules to show how pointless they are is an excellent public service. Breaking rules that stand in the way of your profit is completely different, and it's important to call it out. Depends on whether you view this particular detail as part of providing a service people want (and thus want to pay for), or whether you view it as exclusively in the service of profit (whether it benefits peo…

"Ignoring regulations so you can help people by providing a service they want (whether you make money doing so or not) is entirely different, and far more reasonable. "thats what Pablo Escobar probably thought at some point too -:)

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#319

Post by Karunamon »

leephillips wrote: post #297
Karunamon wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a dichotomy I reject. Laws should be evaluated on an individual basis, not as a body, otherwise you're logically obligated to be as bothered at people going 51 in a 50 as rape and murder. On top of that, many laws are bogus, pointless, useless, more are actively harmful . Hell, Uber got a start by flaunting a law that had little actual use in the real world save for protecting monopolists with very flimsy pre…

"Uber got a start by flaunting a law" "You probably flaunt the speed limit" Probably not what you intended to say. More substantially, I think the licensing regulations for taxis (that's what you have in mind, no?) are far from obviously of "little actual use". This would vary greatly by region; I understand that London and Tokyo, for example, require taxi drivers to prove familiarity with their city's layout before…

Right, but the fact that it's debatable at all means that you don't automatically get to automatically classify breaking a law as a moral evil.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#320

Post by anigbrowl »

bmelton wrote: post #251
anigbrowl wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EDIT: I was wrong about this, see comments below. False. If you renounce it it's expensive and difficult to get it back, and but renouncing itself is free and unilateral. https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal-considerati...

How does that square with this article? https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2015/10/23/u-s-has-w... To sum up, there was a $450 renunciation fee as well as a $450 fee for relinquishment, but both were jacked up from $450 to $2,350. This does not include exit taxes and the like, but while $4700 might seem trivial to the well-heeled, it's a far cry from free (and unilateral).

You're right, I was wrong. I forgot to check because the fees are set by federal rule but then billed in local currencies at different consular offices around the world, and the fee schedule is (oddly) not centralized at state.gov.

Thanks for catching my error.

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2014/08/28/2014-20...

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