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How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

nytimes.com

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Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#321

Post by scythe »

kristofferR wrote: post #201
mikeash wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That struck me too. A normal company might do this, but they'd at least pretend it was meant to deter criminals or catch abusers or whatever. Instead their statement says: "This program denies ride requests to users who are violating our terms of service — whether that’s people aiming to physically harm drivers, competitors looking to disrupt our operations, or opponents who collude with officials on secret ‘stings’…

Both things can be correct if you believe the law in question is bad. The Jefferson quote comes to mind: "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so."

That's from Saint Augustine (famously quoted by ML King Jr in "Letter from a Birmingham Jail"), not Thomas Jefferson.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#322

Post by mindcrime »

nemacol wrote: post #100
lacampbell wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like the US government much, but I like it a lot better than the average multinational. When it comes down to it, we don't have more than our choice of devils. If I don't like Uber, I can... stop using Uber. What can I do if I don't like the service a state provides - can I opt out and stop paying? No, my only option is to flee - which the state will often try and prevent you doing anyway. The state is a huge…

You can vote, run for office, petition, volunteer, protest,etc to the local, state, and federal government to have policies that reflect your values. The only thing you can do with Uber is use it or not. Maybe you could write Uber a letter. You have a say in government - that is its stated goal and purpose. Of the people for the people.

You have a say in government - that is its stated goal and purpose.

On paper. In practice... well, that's a whole different story. See: gerrymandering, voter fraud, ballot access restrictions, voter id laws, etc.

Of the people for the people

Even if that were ever actually the case, I think those days are long gone.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#323

Post by nemacol »

darawk wrote: post #295
nemacol wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can choose not to use Uber and effectively ignore them but that does not stop them from having an influence on you, your community, and your country. It is true that being part of a government system is not a choice but without that community you would be dead or at least not an educated human with internet access. You cannot reap the rewards of government, community, and progress and then turn around and want to…

> You cannot reap the rewards of government, community, and progress and then turn around and want to abolish the systems that made those things possible just because you cannot speed and murder people. What systems are those, exactly? Protectionist laws for taxi drivers?

Sure, if we stick with Uber and transportation topic. Labor laws, minimum wage, vehicle inspections, registration. systems and rules that were put in place as a response to what citizens felt were "wrongs" that needed to be addressed.

When a organization ignores those laws then they are going against the will of the people.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#324

Post by joe_the_user »

jfoutz wrote: post #263
us0r wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe not a popular opinion but I find this entire thing pure genius. >I couldn't find a good source, but it doesn't seem like that's something a CC merchant would have access to. Do they really get to see that? The first 6 digits of a credit card can identify the issuing bank (BIN number - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payment_card_number ). If you ask your merchant they can readily provide you and up to date list.…

I agree. It's genius in a Lex Luthor kind of way. If I understood the full scope of the application, I like to think i'd decline to work on that. It's easy to imagine engineers working on small parts of the system, and never really connecting the dots that the whole point is to evade law enforcement. There's a big difference between keeping secrets for market advantage and to evade the law. In the first case, I want…

It's definitely highly intelligent but just as definitely something that implies a sort of double-or-nothing attitude.

IE, Anything is on the table here, it seems (an attitude that can foster creativity certainly). For example, in the end game would Uber's enemies fair badly if they caught a ride in Uber's automatic cars? Indeed, the cars might even be seeking out people for "accidents".

There's reason even the most innovative Mafiosos often don't make it to old age.

Note also:

"Perverting the course of justice is an offence committed when a person prevents justice from being served on him/herself or on another party. In England and Wales it is a common law offence, carrying a maximum sentence of life imprisonment."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perverting_the_course_of_justi...

"Whoever knowingly alters, destroys, mutilates, conceals, covers up, falsified, or makes a false entry in any record, document, or tangible object with the intent to impede, obstruct, or influence the investigation or proper administration of any matter within the jurisdiction of any department or agency of the United States or any case filed under Title 11, or in relation to or contemplation of any such matter or case, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obstruction_of_justice

And we're talk systematically evading regulators world-wide. ianola but my legal-fantasy mind could compose for people facing a millennium in prison. I assume the reality would be a slap on wrist if they company's influence falls.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#325

Post by anigbrowl »

CompanionCuube wrote: post #268
anigbrowl wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the same government that would have no issues to use the same techniques to spy on its own people for its own motives. Local government is not the same as the NSA. Quit with these fallacies of composition.

Ever heard of a Stingray? https://www.aclu.org/map/stingray-tracking-devices-whos-got-...

Of course, but it's inaccurate to attribute identical behavior to all local governments as if they were part of a single hierarchy.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#326

Post by CaptSpify »

greghendershott wrote: post #127

Not only am I done with Uber, I'm starting to wonder about associates and partners (investors, advisors, marketing partners, etc.) If you're still doing business with Uber in 2017, it's because you don't want to know or you don't care who you're dealing with. Neither reflects well on you. It tells me you have your own very low bar -- your own version of "well we're not as awful as taxis shrug " -- above which anythin…

EDIT: After re-reading your statement, it doesn't appear you meant customers. Leaving my statement below anyway.

> If you're still doing business with Uber in 2017, it's because you don't want to know or you don't care who you're dealing with.

Or because I don't really have an option. Cabs are still terrible and require me to carry cash which I don't, and lyft doesn't work on my phone.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#327

Post by kilroy123 »

spitfire wrote: post #107

Lets not forget that YC has endorsed Uber multiple times in public statements. When YC says "be naughty" this is what they mean. They'll try to distance themselves from this now, but their statements were "be naughty" while holding up AirBnB and Uber as examples to be proud of. Take what you will from that.

I thought of the same thing when I read this. I have to admit, this was really smart and "naughty" on their part.

I'm not happy to hear what kind of company Uber is, internally. However, they seem to operate how VCs want companies to act and "disrupt" markets. (Minus the harassment stuff.)

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#328

Post by mindcrime »

sgift wrote: post #241
darawk wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 'say' you have in government is much smaller than the 'say' you have in using Uber. I can choose not to use Uber any time I please. I can not choose not to be pulled over for speeding, or opt out of murder laws temporarily. The fact that you don't have a say in Uber's corporate decisions is irrelevant, because you can simply stop using it. You don't need a say. The fact that you can't opt out of government is why…

> The 'say' you have in government is much smaller than the 'say' you have in using Uber. I can choose not to use Uber any time I please. I can not choose not to be pulled over for speeding, or opt out of murder laws temporarily. Sure you can. Just leave their jurisdiction. I've heard Somalia is nice.

Just leave their jurisdiction.

Their "jurisdiction" is invalid, so why should we leave?

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#329

Post by yokisan »

striglia wrote: post #35

So I ask this mostly out of horrified curiosity -- is there any negative press or revelation that could actually sink Uber at this point? What would it take for the company to fail? We've seen: * Systematic flouting of laws in public * Even further hidden avoiding of laws * Sexism complaints across the board * What appears to be a pervasive toxic culture, inspired (if not explicitly encouraged) straight from the CEO'…

> is there any negative press or revelation that could actually sink Uber at this point?

They're the Trump of the startup world.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#330

Post by cowsandmilk »

jfoutz wrote: post #263
us0r wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe not a popular opinion but I find this entire thing pure genius. >I couldn't find a good source, but it doesn't seem like that's something a CC merchant would have access to. Do they really get to see that? The first 6 digits of a credit card can identify the issuing bank (BIN number - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payment_card_number ). If you ask your merchant they can readily provide you and up to date list.…

I agree. It's genius in a Lex Luthor kind of way. If I understood the full scope of the application, I like to think i'd decline to work on that. It's easy to imagine engineers working on small parts of the system, and never really connecting the dots that the whole point is to evade law enforcement. There's a big difference between keeping secrets for market advantage and to evade the law. In the first case, I want…

> It's easy to imagine engineers working on small parts of the system, and never really connecting the dots that the whole point is to evade law enforcement.

If you worked at Uber, would you work on a feature meant to prevent lyft employee from using the app to poach data about car locations and hailing rides to recruit new lyft drivers? That was supposedly the original reason for this.

Plenty of people do work to keep corporate secrets safe.

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