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Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

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Re: Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

#81

Post by ars »

jMyles wrote: post #77
alex_hitchins wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> shame people who decide to work in the prison industry (I know this sounds cruel, but it's less cruel than refraining from doing so), and speak out in square company. Not everyone working in the prison system is evil. There are good people there wanting to help people.

Absolutely - I acknowledge that. But at this point, I assert that we need to deprive the system of labor, especially from good people. I think it's a very legitimate form of protest.

> But at this point, I assert that we need to deprive the system of labor, especially from good people

You are delusional. You want to reform the prison system by only hiring bad people to run it?

Re: Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

#82

Post by Natsu »

fiatjaf wrote: post #42
3131s wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm guessing in your case it's either a misunderstanding of what solitary would be like, or a misunderstanding of how bad it would be to share a cell with the average prisoner. Solitary is not just getting the room to yourself. It's 24 hours a day of total isolation and really nothing at all to do. Your human contact would be limited to having guards slide food trays into your cell and once a day having a guard escor…

Really, how many people get to stay DECADES in prison? In Brazil the most horrible crimes have a de facto threshold of 6 years in jail.

Generally speaking, those who commit violent felonies are relatively likely to serve sentences like that. So rapists, murders and that sort of thing.

Part of the rationale is that it keeps people who willingly do such things away from society. So it's not simply punitive (and there's very little in the way of rehabilitation), it's more a matter of keeping them away from new victims. A point frequently lost in these conversations.

Re: Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

#83

Post by Domenic_S »

FreezerburnV wrote: post #68
maxxxxx wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Christian god is not exactly forgiving. If you don't behave well you will be punished for eternity and there is no way to get out of hell. So I think it makes sense for a Christian leaning country to be ok with punishment.

Normally, I don't tend to get involved in HN talks about religion/Christianity, but I'm going to make an exception this time. As someone who is a Christian (I define as a "follower of Christ", not just as someone who follows some set of rules) I actually find the common misconception that "behaving badly" getting you thrown in Hell or "behaving well" gets you a ticket into Heaven to be one of the greatest, and saddes…

> after that point nothing you do can take it away from you

Eternal security is a Calvinist view that is far from universally held.

Re: Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

#84

Post by p1esk »

entropyneur wrote: post #25
tronje wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want this to sound snide, but have you read the whole article? Inmates are literally driven insane by solitary confinement, driven to self harm and suicide. It's not like you just get a cell for yourself as you would wish for in, say, a hospital; you are actually completely alone for months on end, with hardly any recreational activities, maybe none at all. That's much worse than having to cope with a celly w…

I did read the entire article and that's exactly my point. Despite my rational mind being fully on board with the fact that solitary is a hundred times worse my feelings remain skewed in the other direction. So much that they would override rational judgement if given an opportunity. This is quite an uncomfortable feeling for someone who considers himself a rational person and I'd like to investigate it.

I have actually read an article similar to this one about horrors of sharing a prison cell with someone else. Think about years of sharing a small windowless bathroom 23 hours a day with someone who is crazy, violent, and stronger than you. Oh yeah, and he's doing life for killing a bunch of people because he simply didn't like them, or couldn't control his rage.

Re: Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

#85

Post by gdwatson »

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #34
richmarr wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The entire point of the American justice system is to make people suffer... It's interesting that the comparitively religious-leaning US has a more punishment-centric penal system, whereas the comparatively secular Europe leans towards rehabilitation. Considering the "vengeance is mine" thing and the Christian forgiveness thing you would have thought it would be the other way around.

That bit has always surprised me - not just in the prison systems, but things like a safety net and healthcare for the poor.

On the safety net, it's worth remembering that Christian societies have historically had other institutions than government into which to channel their collective efforts. The notion that all "the things we choose to do together" are the sphere of government is a recent one in the West.

Re: Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

#86

Post by [deleted] »

mfringel wrote: post #65
IsaacL wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know how much people suffer if their house is broken into, if they are robbed at gunpoint, if they are raped, etc? Not just the direct harm, but the ongoing psychological harm?

Will the perpetrator's suffering make the victim un-robbed?

[deleted]

Re: Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

#87

Post by p1esk »

mfringel wrote: post #79
p1esk wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might make some victims feel better, which can be considered a form of a moral compensation.

It might.... under what circumstances? some victims.... which ones? can be considered.... by who?

Well, I would've certainly felt better knowing that the guy who robbed me got punished.

Re: Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

#88

Post by virmundi »

FreezerburnV wrote: post #68
maxxxxx wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Christian god is not exactly forgiving. If you don't behave well you will be punished for eternity and there is no way to get out of hell. So I think it makes sense for a Christian leaning country to be ok with punishment.

Normally, I don't tend to get involved in HN talks about religion/Christianity, but I'm going to make an exception this time. As someone who is a Christian (I define as a "follower of Christ", not just as someone who follows some set of rules) I actually find the common misconception that "behaving badly" getting you thrown in Hell or "behaving well" gets you a ticket into Heaven to be one of the greatest, and saddes…

Christianity is even odder than that, comparatively to the pretty much every other philosophy. You only need to repent (not that it's a small thing). That's it.

The story of the prodigal son shows this. Total fuck up son gets accepted back just because he repents. Doesn't do anything. The father just accepts him. The legalistic, I-did-everything-for-you son didn't have to do the works. His works didn't matter. The father says everything I have is yours. The son's works didn't do shit. He could have enjoyed the benefits of son-ship, but didn't due to constraints he put on himself.

I know of no other religion or philosophy that says you don't have to do anything. That explicitly says works don't matter for your salvation (you're supposed to do them, but they don't save you).

Re: Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

#89

Post by marvin »

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #39
fsiefken wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding Sweden, does Breivik's prison sentence and stay (solitary confinement) constitute torture? "1 March 2017, the Court of Appeals upheld part of Brevik`s appeal that Article 3 of the convention on human rights had been breached, that he has been subjected to degrading treatment but that his solitary confinement did not violate Breivik's rights" (source: wikipedia) Or what about the solitary confinement of Gott…

Breivik's solitary confinement is also much, much different than the little rooms in the US. He has 3 rooms to move around in. He can cook for himself, play instruments, has exercise equipment. He has a computer, though I think his internet access is limited to nil. He has medical and mental health care at his disposal. He can have visitors, though they are through glass. They made an exception to that glass before h…

I strongly doubt that Breivik will ever be let out of solitary confinement unless the Norwegian high court finds that the Norwegian penal system violates Norwegian law. I doubt that even a conviction in the European court of human rights would cause Norwegian authorities to change the practice.

The official explanation for the solitary confinement is that other prisoners would kill him if they had access to him. The word punishment has never been been used to describe his extraordinary sentencing conditions. Actually, it's pretty ironic to have this discussion the same week that a convicted child sex offender was killed in a Norwegian prison after numerous warnings.

Breivik killed dozens of children of Arbeiderpartiet politicians, one of the biggest parties and the ruling party at the time. Norwegian society, great though it is in many ways, is still not capable of admitting that our relationship with the rule of law is somewhat selective.

Note: This is not in _any_ was a defence of Breivik's actions or ideology, rather a commentary on how legal principles are difficult for even a principled society to uphold in extreme cases. (It's also worth pointing out that Norway has been repeatedly criticised by the UN for our use of solitary confinement against arrestees that are not yet charged with a crime).

Re: Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

#90

Post by mfringel »

p1esk wrote: post #87
mfringel wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might.... under what circumstances? some victims.... which ones? can be considered.... by who?

Well, I would've certainly felt better knowing that the guy who robbed me got punished.

Note that we're talking about a justice system that rehabilitates vs. one that punishes. Do you care which one happens to the perp, with the knowledge that they will be back in society at some point?
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