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Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

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Re: Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

#21

Post by bouvin »

fsiefken wrote: post #15
andyjohnson0 wrote: post #3

"There are still significant variations within Europe in the maximum permissible duration for solitary confinement allowed as punishment. In Belgium, eight days is the maximum permissible duration, whereas Finland allows 14 days; Poland, England, and Wales allow 28; France and Estonia allow 45; and Ireland allows up to 60. But overall, the dangers of solitary confinement have been recognized." [1] [1] http://www.brow…

Regarding Sweden, does Breivik's prison sentence and stay (solitary confinement) constitute torture? "1 March 2017, the Court of Appeals upheld part of Brevik`s appeal that Article 3 of the convention on human rights had been breached, that he has been subjected to degrading treatment but that his solitary confinement did not violate Breivik's rights" (source: wikipedia) Or what about the solitary confinement of Gott…

Breivik would be in Norway. He is not completely isolated btw, as he has visitors (IIRC, from an organisation that normally visits the lonely or elderly — he is not permitted to choose his own visitors).

Re: Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

#22

Post by tronje »

entropyneur wrote: post #9

On the intellectual level I have absolutely no reason to doubt the scientific evidence or the countless accounts of people who were subjected to solitary imprisonment and describe it as torture and worst thing that ever happened to them. I remember a documentary (probably NatGeo's "America's hardest prisons") episode where a violent and seemingly fearless thug was reduced to a crying baby by 2 weeks of solitary confi…

I don't want this to sound snide, but have you read the whole article? Inmates are literally driven insane by solitary confinement, driven to self harm and suicide.

It's not like you just get a cell for yourself as you would wish for in, say, a hospital; you are actually completely alone for months on end, with hardly any recreational activities, maybe none at all. That's much worse than having to cope with a celly who might be a bit unpleasant.

Re: Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

#23

Post by entropyneur »

bambax wrote: post #17
interfixus wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. I am sociable enough, but given the choice, I'll take solitude any day.

I would tend to agree with both comments but I think it's because we don't know what we're talking about. We all have experienced being in a closed space with people we don't know or like, but we usually have never experienced complete isolation for extended periods of time. I need lots of time alone, but being absolutely alone for two weeks and having zero interaction with anyone or even an animal or a plant? That's…

That could be. I am even pondering a self-experiment where I'd spend some time in complete isolation. But I don't think I have the guts to do it without an option to abort at any moment. And the very presence of such option would probably make the experience very different to that of a prisoner.

Re: Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

#24

Post by olfox »

Mindfield, the new series by vsauce, tackled this in its first episode, which recently became free to watch.

It was an interesting watch, although I couldn't really take the experiment seriously after the segment with the former inmate who had spent way more time confined in a cell with even less stimulation than the one Michael was about to enter.

Anyhow, prolonged isolation(>3 days, maybe less) and willful disruption of circadian rhythms should definitely be considered torture.

Also, doing this to people who will reenter society is just so shortsighted and dumb, regardless of the total lack of morality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqKdEhx-dD4

Re: Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

#25

Post by entropyneur »

tronje wrote: post #22
entropyneur wrote: post #9

On the intellectual level I have absolutely no reason to doubt the scientific evidence or the countless accounts of people who were subjected to solitary imprisonment and describe it as torture and worst thing that ever happened to them. I remember a documentary (probably NatGeo's "America's hardest prisons") episode where a violent and seemingly fearless thug was reduced to a crying baby by 2 weeks of solitary confi…

I don't want this to sound snide, but have you read the whole article? Inmates are literally driven insane by solitary confinement, driven to self harm and suicide. It's not like you just get a cell for yourself as you would wish for in, say, a hospital; you are actually completely alone for months on end, with hardly any recreational activities, maybe none at all. That's much worse than having to cope with a celly w…

I did read the entire article and that's exactly my point. Despite my rational mind being fully on board with the fact that solitary is a hundred times worse my feelings remain skewed in the other direction. So much that they would override rational judgement if given an opportunity. This is quite an uncomfortable feeling for someone who considers himself a rational person and I'd like to investigate it.

Re: Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

#26

Post by IsaacL »

ploggingdev wrote: post #2

> the federal government and about half of the states in the country began restricting their use of solitary. These efforts gained bipartisan support for economical, not compassionate, reasons That is the most telling line about how the Government thinks. Do these people not think about how cruel solitary confinement is? The best way to make people understand these cruel practices is to imagine themselves in solitary…

Do you know how much people suffer if their house is broken into, if they are robbed at gunpoint, if they are raped, etc? Not just the direct harm, but the ongoing psychological harm?

Re: Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

#27

Post by s_kilk »

interfixus wrote: post #16
entropyneur wrote: post #9

On the intellectual level I have absolutely no reason to doubt the scientific evidence or the countless accounts of people who were subjected to solitary imprisonment and describe it as torture and worst thing that ever happened to them. I remember a documentary (probably NatGeo's "America's hardest prisons") episode where a violent and seemingly fearless thug was reduced to a crying baby by 2 weeks of solitary confi…

Absolutely. I am sociable enough, but given the choice, I'll take solitude any day.

You literally have no idea what you're talking about.

Re: Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

#28

Post by entropyneur »

3131s wrote: post #18
entropyneur wrote: post #9

On the intellectual level I have absolutely no reason to doubt the scientific evidence or the countless accounts of people who were subjected to solitary imprisonment and describe it as torture and worst thing that ever happened to them. I remember a documentary (probably NatGeo's "America's hardest prisons") episode where a violent and seemingly fearless thug was reduced to a crying baby by 2 weeks of solitary confi…

I'm guessing in your case it's either a misunderstanding of what solitary would be like, or a misunderstanding of how bad it would be to share a cell with the average prisoner. Solitary is not just getting the room to yourself. It's 24 hours a day of total isolation and really nothing at all to do. Your human contact would be limited to having guards slide food trays into your cell and once a day having a guard escor…

I am honestly not trying to sneakily argue for the use of solitary :)

For example, if I was asked right now to vote on it, I'd use my rational judgement to conclude that it's unethical and would vote against. However as soon as I imagine myself in both of these situations, having cellmates feels significantly more frightening even though I'm fully aware that I'd be 5-10 times as likely to kill myself without them.

As others have pointed out, it might be because I have direct experience of conflict but not of isolation. However, I also don't have any direct experience of physical torture and still it scares me more than torture by isolation, so it's probably not that simple.

Re: Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

#29

Post by jamescostian »

IsaacL wrote: post #26
ploggingdev wrote: post #2

> the federal government and about half of the states in the country began restricting their use of solitary. These efforts gained bipartisan support for economical, not compassionate, reasons That is the most telling line about how the Government thinks. Do these people not think about how cruel solitary confinement is? The best way to make people understand these cruel practices is to imagine themselves in solitary…

Do you know how much people suffer if their house is broken into, if they are robbed at gunpoint, if they are raped, etc? Not just the direct harm, but the ongoing psychological harm?

That harm is truly awful. But I believe Gandhi said something like "An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind."

If you don't care about the people in solitary, why not at least care about their psychological state once they get out? Imagine someone who was in solitary being freed, and then deciding to harm some people. Don't you think the person from solitary, who has had a bunch of psychological issues from solitary, would be even worse than someone who hasn't been in solitary?

P.S. your original Iron Man framing makes me want to respond in kind with a strawman: imagine a person hooked on cigarettes goes to prison for a crime they didn't even commit, and then they are caught with cigarettes and put in solitary. I'd say that's also truly awful

Re: Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

#30

Post by entropyneur »

andyjohnson0 wrote: post #19
entropyneur wrote: post #9

On the intellectual level I have absolutely no reason to doubt the scientific evidence or the countless accounts of people who were subjected to solitary imprisonment and describe it as torture and worst thing that ever happened to them. I remember a documentary (probably NatGeo's "America's hardest prisons") episode where a violent and seemingly fearless thug was reduced to a crying baby by 2 weeks of solitary confi…

> I'd choose solitary over sharing a cell with others Is it possible that you would regret this after five or ten or more years or almost no contact with another person? Maybe you're focusing on the physical sharing aspect at the expense of not fully comprehending the more abstract time aspect. Which is totally understandable: I don't know how anyone can realistically imagine what this experience would be like.

> Is it possible that you would regret this after five or ten or more years or almost no contact with another person?

Certainly. In fact this is the only aspect that gets through to my feelings. Weird.

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