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Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

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Re: Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

#61
post #52

Stories of torture at the hands of the state, in a domestic correctional context, are everywhere. This is a confirmed, observable phenomenon, not subject to much conjecture or doubt. And it's time to smash it. Thinking that some slow, incremental legislative progress is going to fix this problem is pulling a blanket of privilege over eyes and ears. When Washington falls, which it will, we must immediately turn to our…

> shame people who decide to work in the prison industry (I know this sounds cruel, but it's less cruel than refraining from doing so), and speak out in square company.

Not everyone working in the prison system is evil. There are good people there wanting to help people.

Re: Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

#63
post #52

Stories of torture at the hands of the state, in a domestic correctional context, are everywhere. This is a confirmed, observable phenomenon, not subject to much conjecture or doubt. And it's time to smash it. Thinking that some slow, incremental legislative progress is going to fix this problem is pulling a blanket of privilege over eyes and ears. When Washington falls, which it will, we must immediately turn to our…

Your plan would make things unbelievably worse.

And I don't understand how you don't see this.

You reject a legislative process, and also want to shame people who work in prisons.

So basically you are blocking the only two possible paths to accomplish your goals: Either new laws, or reform from the inside.

How can you be so short sighted?

Re: Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

#64
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely. But pre-existing (or developed, since some don't turn up until one's 20's) mental health problems are a bit different now, aren't they? I'm not comfortable with these folks being in prison before they've had proper mental health care, honestly. Most folks with mental disorders are OK once they are stable with medication and sometimes need support to make sure they take such medication. We should more like…

> a live-in mental health hospital Much more expensive and there are much less investors for such facilities. So it's not going to be a solution anytime soon.

There are less investors because it's not a growth sector, because America increasingly criminalizes mental illness, so the mentally unwell end up in jail far more often than in mental hospitals.

It could easily be a solution if we switched away from a mass-incarceration, punishment above rehabilitation regime like in Norway as described towards the top of this thread.

Re: Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

#65
post #26

> the federal government and about half of the states in the country began restricting their use of solitary. These efforts gained bipartisan support for economical, not compassionate, reasons That is the most telling line about how the Government thinks. Do these people not think about how cruel solitary confinement is? The best way to make people understand these cruel practices is to imagine themselves in solitary…

Do you know how much people suffer if their house is broken into, if they are robbed at gunpoint, if they are raped, etc? Not just the direct harm, but the ongoing psychological harm?

Will the perpetrator's suffering make the victim un-robbed?

Re: Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd call into question whether such people should be punished at all, for what's arguably not their fault.

A not-trolling, serious question... If they shouldn't be punished, what would you recommend? I don't have a well-informed suggestion.

A long while ago, the US decided to end state support for mental health treatment facilities. The hospitals and closed wards dedicated to the treatment--and confinement--of the insane were shuttered, and the patients and their families were on their own.

After several years, it became apparent that this decision simply shunted the responsibility of managing dangerous and mentally unstable individuals--particularly those too poor to afford private treatment--to the prison system.

So now all the prisons and jails are also de facto mental health clinics--plus gratuitous punishment that is virtually guaranteed to have no impact whatsoever of the recidivism rate for the subjectively crazy inmates.

Some of my fellow Americans have some rather warped and irrational opinions on mental illnesses, taking them as weakness of character, rather than diseases to be cured, treated, or managed under the direction of a competent specialist. This allows them to rationalize the management of crazy people as someone else's problem, and the struggles faced by those with mental impairments or disorders as largely their own fault. Those people often hold other irrational beliefs. They may also think that one's sexuality is a choice that can be changed. Or they may believe that week-old fetuses have greater value than their mothers. Or they may believe that using a recreational drug is criminal behavior that warrants being locked in a cage for years. And they vote. Those elected to office with the support of their votes may also support their views with legislation as a means of retaining that support for reelection. And so it goes. Rational governance loses sway in the face of an ignorant populace.

I would recommend screening all current prison inmates for objectively measurable symptoms of cognitive impairments, brain damage, and personality disorders, at state expense. Then transfer those with confirmed diagnoses to dedicated treatment facilities, not punishment boxes. And aside from the diagnosed individuals, criminal behavior is itself a symptom of a disease in society. Punishing a poor person for being ignorant and making his own selfish opportunities will not solve the underlying problem, which is that society generally expects work in exchange for the means of survival, and withholds work opportunities from those it finds to be unpopular or otherwise undesirable.

This would be much less severe a problem if the US health care industry were less oriented to private profits and more oriented towards the general welfare. And it would be less severe if "tough on crime" candidates for political office aimed for more prevention and less punishment.

Re: Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

#67
post #26

> the federal government and about half of the states in the country began restricting their use of solitary. These efforts gained bipartisan support for economical, not compassionate, reasons That is the most telling line about how the Government thinks. Do these people not think about how cruel solitary confinement is? The best way to make people understand these cruel practices is to imagine themselves in solitary…

Do you know how much people suffer if their house is broken into, if they are robbed at gunpoint, if they are raped, etc? Not just the direct harm, but the ongoing psychological harm?

But why does the magnitude of that harm justify harming the perpetrator an equal amount? What is the logic of retribution?

It seems inherently fair to our animal instincts that a victim of violence should received "satisfaction" for their unjust suffering. But do the victims gain anything from this supposed satisfaction? Maybe some of them do experience a reduction in their ongoing suffering; I doubt it makes the pain of loss go away entirely for most.

But more importantly, how does the system of retributive justice impact society beyond the perpetrators and victims? I would argue that its impact is almost entirely negative. The perpetrators are themselves repeatedly victimized, often disproportionately to their original crimes - by the general dehumanization of jailing, violence at the hands of other prisoners and guards, social humiliation and pariahdom, economic and political disenfranchisement. But their victimizations are largely considered just and legal, and thus they cannot redress their grievances through the law. So what do they do? Leave jail wounded, aggrieved and with further criminal training, even more likely to commit crimes (and worse ones at that) than when they went in. Thus they create more victims, and the cycle of suffering is perpetuated and amplified.

Re: Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

#68
post #37
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The entire point of the American justice system is to make people suffer... It's interesting that the comparitively religious-leaning US has a more punishment-centric penal system, whereas the comparatively secular Europe leans towards rehabilitation. Considering the "vengeance is mine" thing and the Christian forgiveness thing you would have thought it would be the other way around.

The Christian god is not exactly forgiving. If you don't behave well you will be punished for eternity and there is no way to get out of hell. So I think it makes sense for a Christian leaning country to be ok with punishment.

Normally, I don't tend to get involved in HN talks about religion/Christianity, but I'm going to make an exception this time. As someone who is a Christian (I define as a "follower of Christ", not just as someone who follows some set of rules) I actually find the common misconception that "behaving badly" getting you thrown in Hell or "behaving well" gets you a ticket into Heaven to be one of the greatest, and saddest, misconceptions about what Christianity is. In fact, there is actually only a single requirement for getting into Heaven: deciding to accept a freely-given gift of forgiveness by deciding to follow Jesus. Before that point nothing you do can get you into Heaven, after that point nothing you do can take it away from you. It has absolutely nothing to do with doing good things or bad things, and I really, really wish this wasn't such a common misconception, because the reality is much more beautiful and simpler than that.

Also saying that God isn't forgiving is an entirely other topic that means you haven't paid much attention to the Bible. The amount of times he decides to not destroy his (highly belligerent) people in the Old Testament is ridiculous, and the efforts put forward to grant forgiveness to anyone in the New Testament are unheard of in any other religious teaching. Which I'm glad about, because I am certainly a flawed, screwed up person that would never be able to earn my way into any kind of good afterlife otherwise.

Sorry for the rant/preaching/whatever. Feel free to downvote me or whatever for getting into something off topic for HN, it's internet points so it doesn't matter much to me. I just really felt a need to point out some common misconceptions about something I deeply care about.

Re: Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

#69
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That could be. I am even pondering a self-experiment where I'd spend some time in complete isolation. But I don't think I have the guts to do it without an option to abort at any moment. And the very presence of such option would probably make the experience very different to that of a prisoner.

I have sailed across the Atlantic, alone, in a small (9.3m) yacht. 29 days alone with nothing much to see except what is close by (the sea, is.. unchanging, but ever changing). The solitude did not bother me though others have said it would bother them, but then I was more or less in control of my destiny. I had no option to abort (technically, I guess I could have called a ship on the radio and claimed an emergency)…

Also, being in nature is a deep and positive experience, so it might compensate for loneliness.

Re: Buried Alive: Stories from Inside Solitary Confinement

#70
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a live-in mental health hospital Much more expensive and there are much less investors for such facilities. So it's not going to be a solution anytime soon.

Right, so let's torture the mentally ill patients to save a bit of tax money. Seems like the right solution.

Nah you're right, let's just make you pay for it all. Much better solution.
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