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Strategic Consequences of Chinese Racism: Strategic Asymmetry for the USA (2013) [pdf]

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Re: Strategic Consequences of Chinese Racism: Strategic Asymmetry for the USA (2013) [pdf]

#61

Post by rasz_pl »

padde wrote: post #39

As a person who has lived in China for nearly a decade, I have experienced racism first hand there. But actually it was, 99% of the time, racism that favored my white skin. Wherever I (or any other white foreigner I know) went, I had instant respect and was admired, without having to do anything to earn that respect. Why does the article, which seems well-researched, not mention this phenomenon at all? (Or maybe I've…

You were admired the same way people admire iphones or European supercars. Great to have a token white guy for random photo op, but dont count on getting real job or any kind of power/control (like being able to create a company etc.)

Re: Strategic Consequences of Chinese Racism: Strategic Asymmetry for the USA (2013) [pdf]

#62

Post by b6 »

echaozh wrote: post #56
idra wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taiwan (The Republic of China) is an independent country with its own government, currency and international relations. Any deals between Mainland China and Taiwan are international affairs.

Let's wait and see.

Please elaborate.

Re: Strategic Consequences of Chinese Racism: Strategic Asymmetry for the USA (2013) [pdf]

#63

Post by inimino »

chj wrote: post #41
vtange wrote: post #19

I'm Chinese American. I won't claim to represent everyone and everything Chinese, here are my two cents. China is what happens when you enclose a really big population in a box. And this box is really comfortable; you have little incentive to go outside of it. You have the company of millions of other Chinese folk, and Chinese culture and its derivatives (to this day many of us see Korea and Japan as copies of Chines…

> Chinese are racist because we have very limited experience with other, non-East Asian cultures. I disagree with the assertion that Chinese are racist. You will never see a restaurant in China that says "No ---- and dogs" except in early 20th century Shanghai. I agree that Chinese are usually less sensitive about racial topics. They will carelessly call a foreigner "洋鬼子", but that's as bad as "Yankee" goes IMHO. I'v…

You couldn't be more wrong. Poll a few older Chinese people on what they think of black or Japanese people for an education.

Re: Strategic Consequences of Chinese Racism: Strategic Asymmetry for the USA (2013) [pdf]

#64

Post by pmarreck »

frozenport wrote: post #60
pmarreck wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Between this and http://shanghaiist.com/2015/11/19/study_says_china_least_hon... (many other references to this phenomenon such as https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/culture-matters-chinese-asian... and https://thelinguafranca.wordpress.com/2008/03/25/do-the-chin... ), it doesn't make China look that fantastic. Debating whether it's lying or "lying" seems a lot like debating whether it's racism or "racism."

And then these students tell me that in China what they did wouldn't be considered cheating. And then they come to work as graduate students and visiting scholars, and tell me that what they did wouldn't be considered violations of academic integrity.

I bet Chinese marriages are awesome. /s

Re: Strategic Consequences of Chinese Racism: Strategic Asymmetry for the USA (2013) [pdf]

#65

Post by yosefk »

throwaway729 wrote: post #16
yosefk wrote: post #2

I know very little about China, but the report mentions in passing that racism is pervasive in Russia where I was born, whereas Western societies have done a remarkable job addressing racism. It is not obvious to me that the American approach of racial quotas in high education (which incidentally penalizes Asians very heavily today, perhaps more than any other group) is particularly different from the Soviet approach…

> I know very little about China, but the report mentions in passing that racism is pervasive in Russia where I was born, whereas Western societies have done a remarkable job addressing racism. I don't think that the report is saying "China is racist and we aren't." It's saying that the difference between the US and China is that the US struggles with its racism whereas China doesn't. Or, at the very least, that this…

> They have no qualms with racism -- only with racism against Han Chinese.

> Affirmative Action is somewhere near the mid-bottom, not the top, of a long list of very serious problems deeply rooted in racism.

To you the fact that there are still black people who lived through Jim Crow matters more than the fact that there are Asians today who are turned down by high education institutions because of their race. Why can't a Chinese person tell you that you have no qualms with racism - only with racism against black people?

It seems to be a common viewpoint in the West that the response to racism is a hierarchy of grievances, and that for example a white person who supports preferential treatment of black people at the expense of Asians is not a racist, either because "racism" is defined to mean "disagreeing with the hierarchy of grievances", or simply because it's only "racism" when you're trying to get preferential treatment for your own race, but it's not "racism" if it's for another race. This is not however the only possible definition of racism, nor the original definition, nor the definition used in the report.

BTW I'm not sure whether a 100% color blind policy is always the best thing or not, and perhaps it depends on context. I'm just saying that I think it's a much thornier subject than people with (many different) strong positions seem to believe.

Re: Strategic Consequences of Chinese Racism: Strategic Asymmetry for the USA (2013) [pdf]

#66

Post by jff »

hneans wrote: post #36
Redditshill wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my comments earlier in the thread it's pretty clear that I understand why many Chinese have the viewpoint that outside influence is bad. However, I think your viewpoint is way too extreme. China isn't some passive country now that is just sitting around being attacked by extremists/freedom fighters, but China is actively making aggressive moves towards many other countries. For example, China has threatened Taiw…

yes, my viewpoint is way too extreme, I just comment about Westerners' hypocrisy as the way some of Westerners did to China people. Threantened Taiwan? lol, Please find out the economic data of China-Taiwan trade, China maintains trade deficit with Taiwan, but maintains trade surplus for most countries, including the United States, Japan, and EU. And I hope you can figure out how the Taiwanese are treated in mainland…

Taiwan is the home of the legitimate government of mainland China. Taiwan #1.

Re: Strategic Consequences of Chinese Racism: Strategic Asymmetry for the USA (2013) [pdf]

#67

Post by squozzer »

Not sure I would call it racism. Ethnocentrism, as others have said, born of centuries of relative isolation and periods of significant cultural and technological advances.

Not sure if USA can exploit negative perceptions of China, given our history and the histories of other white-dominated nations (e.g. GB and France) in Africa and Latin America.

For all we know, the Third World might not mind at all seeing the West taken down a peg, especially if they see no change in their status. But even if things go worse for the TW because of China, what can they do about it?

Re: Strategic Consequences of Chinese Racism: Strategic Asymmetry for the USA (2013) [pdf]

#68

Post by stillsut »

chvid wrote: post #45

I find it odd to that this document is on the frontpage of HN. 200+ pages, no clear summary, unclear what it is it? Other than appearantly it is confidential who has written it, seemingly academic and it is about Chinese and/or China being racists. Where is this document from? And why was it written? "Racist" is probably the most damning word that one can use in politics (here international politics) and can be used…

I upvoted you because you're raising some important points.

To play advocate for keeping it unflagged: - domain of gwern.net is a respected source here; even his zanier points get the benefit of the doubt - China's future is hugely significant for the future of tech. - The document is not in any way a fluff piece, a "submarine", or pure anecdote. - ism's are discussed almost daily here in a domestic context.

Re: Strategic Consequences of Chinese Racism: Strategic Asymmetry for the USA (2013) [pdf]

#69

Post by SudoNhim »

chvid wrote: post #45

I find it odd to that this document is on the frontpage of HN. 200+ pages, no clear summary, unclear what it is it? Other than appearantly it is confidential who has written it, seemingly academic and it is about Chinese and/or China being racists. Where is this document from? And why was it written? "Racist" is probably the most damning word that one can use in politics (here international politics) and can be used…

It's from the Department of Defense litigation release a few months back. Have a look here:

http://www.dod.mil/pubs/foi/Reading_Room/Other/

Most of these are anthropology reports commissioned by the DoD. A lot of them are super interesting. Examples:

2st Century Cultures of War http://www.dod.mil/pubs/foi/Reading_Room/Other/Litigation%20...

Axis of Troubles: Male Youth and Factional Politics http://www.dod.mil/pubs/foi/Reading_Room/Other/Litigation%20...

The Future of Europe http://www.dod.mil/pubs/foi/Reading_Room/Other/Litigation%20...

The Future of Africa and the Future of China in Africa http://www.dod.mil/pubs/foi/Reading_Room/Other/Litigation%20...

Re: Strategic Consequences of Chinese Racism: Strategic Asymmetry for the USA (2013) [pdf]

#70

Post by Redditshill »

jff wrote: post #66
hneans wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes, my viewpoint is way too extreme, I just comment about Westerners' hypocrisy as the way some of Westerners did to China people. Threantened Taiwan? lol, Please find out the economic data of China-Taiwan trade, China maintains trade deficit with Taiwan, but maintains trade surplus for most countries, including the United States, Japan, and EU. And I hope you can figure out how the Taiwanese are treated in mainland…

Taiwan is the home of the legitimate government of mainland China. Taiwan #1.

Exactly -- any claim that mainland China (PRC) has over Taiwan (ROC), Taiwan could make that same claim over China. We don't see the US making a claim that UK is part of the US, it's simply ridiculous.
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