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Strategic Consequences of Chinese Racism: Strategic Asymmetry for the USA (2013) [pdf]

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Re: Strategic Consequences of Chinese Racism: Strategic Asymmetry for the USA (2013) [pdf]

#51

Post by Animats »

faitswulff wrote: post #40
Untit1ed wrote: post #3

Interesting how often the perceived racial equality of the USA comes up as an advantage over China in terms of their perception in the developing world - I wonder if the policies of the Trump administration are in the process of tipping that balance the other way.

Agreed. Trump and America in recent years are doing major damage to USA's soft-power advantages over China with respects to racism and racial equality: > Fourth, the message of the United States should be: We are better than the Chinese for Africa. We will assist you with economic aid to offset what you receive from China. In sum, culturally, socially, and politically, the United States is better, citizens are equal,…

The message of the Chinese government to third world governments is "we're not going to try to change your government". They get along with the Islamic world and various oppressive regimes in Africa that way. The US is always nagging about human rights and corruption.

Meanwhile, China is building railroads from China to Europe.[1]

[1] http://www.xinhuanet.com/world/newsilkway/index.htm

Re: Strategic Consequences of Chinese Racism: Strategic Asymmetry for the USA (2013) [pdf]

#52

Post by chj »

idra wrote: post #42
chj wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Chinese are racist because we have very limited experience with other, non-East Asian cultures. I disagree with the assertion that Chinese are racist. You will never see a restaurant in China that says "No ---- and dogs" except in early 20th century Shanghai. I agree that Chinese are usually less sensitive about racial topics. They will carelessly call a foreigner "洋鬼子", but that's as bad as "Yankee" goes IMHO. I'v…

> You will never see a restaurant in China that says "No ---- and dogs" except in early 20th century Shanghai Very poorly chosen example, because "No Japanese and dogs" signs are incredibly common across China. [1][2][3] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Japanese_sentiment_in_Chi... [2] http://beijingcream.com/2013/02/no-dogs-but-also-no-japanese... [3] http://chinahopelive.net/2012/09/17/japanese-and-dog-no-nea…

> Very poorly chosen example, because "No Japanese and dogs" signs are incredibly common across China

Funny you should mention that. The relation between two people is actually quite friendly except political occasions. Also the Japanese hate is due to the world war 2, not racial. In fact we are one race.

> "洋鬼子" literally means "foreign devil".

'devil' is a strong word. It's more like 'foreign strange men'.

Re: Strategic Consequences of Chinese Racism: Strategic Asymmetry for the USA (2013) [pdf]

#53

Post by defen »

gwern wrote: post #27
defen wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> even universal use of IVF would not deliver more than maybe 4.5 IQ points That still doubles the number of people in your population with a 130+ IQ. Assuming baseline 100 mean and 15 std dev.

Sure (I include a table of the consequences on the tail for various scenarios), but consider that the Chinese population is already more than twice the size of the US population and available measurements suggest it may have a higher starting mean as well, but that has not had a huge impact. Why would another doubling be expected to? (The US could probably easily double its 130+ numbers if it wanted to just by changi…

Oh yeah, a gain of +100 points is just insane and it would be difficult to predict what that society would even be like. I was just trying to suggest that +4.5 to the mean might also have potentially big effects.

As for why China isn't farther ahead - IQ isn't everything. They modernized pretty late in the game, and operated under a profoundly stupid economic system for a good part of the 20th century. I believe that their current government is pretty corrupt, but I'm far from an expert.

Re: Strategic Consequences of Chinese Racism: Strategic Asymmetry for the USA (2013) [pdf]

#54

Post by dang »

idra wrote: post #22

Although I mostly agree with your comment, I find the subtext of it (and especially the fact that you had to put "racism" in quotes, as if Chinese prejudice towards other races isn't actually racism) quite distasteful. Racism is racism, and "limited experience with other cultures" isn't an excuse for it. Update: I see you've reworded your post and removed the quotation marks, I appreciate it.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13751036 and marked it off-topic.

Re: Strategic Consequences of Chinese Racism: Strategic Asymmetry for the USA (2013) [pdf]

#55

Post by dang »

idra wrote: post #6
yosefk wrote: post #2

I know very little about China, but the report mentions in passing that racism is pervasive in Russia where I was born, whereas Western societies have done a remarkable job addressing racism. It is not obvious to me that the American approach of racial quotas in high education (which incidentally penalizes Asians very heavily today, perhaps more than any other group) is particularly different from the Soviet approach…

The "mention" is one sentence: "Racism is common at every level of Russian society and is at times explicitly voiced in Russia." This is true. How can this possibly make you suspicious about the article's main topics? You wrote a lot about nothing.

You've repeatedly been rude in the comments you've posted to HN. We ban accounts that do this, so please stop doing it.

_yosefk's thoughtful, reflective comment based on personal experience is the kind we welcome here.

Re: Strategic Consequences of Chinese Racism: Strategic Asymmetry for the USA (2013) [pdf]

#56

Post by echaozh »

idra wrote: post #37
hneans wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes, my viewpoint is way too extreme, I just comment about Westerners' hypocrisy as the way some of Westerners did to China people. Threantened Taiwan? lol, Please find out the economic data of China-Taiwan trade, China maintains trade deficit with Taiwan, but maintains trade surplus for most countries, including the United States, Japan, and EU. And I hope you can figure out how the Taiwanese are treated in mainland…

Taiwan (The Republic of China) is an independent country with its own government, currency and international relations. Any deals between Mainland China and Taiwan are international affairs.

Let's wait and see.

Re: Strategic Consequences of Chinese Racism: Strategic Asymmetry for the USA (2013) [pdf]

#57

Post by dang »

blusterXY wrote: post #47
padde wrote: post #39

As a person who has lived in China for nearly a decade, I have experienced racism first hand there. But actually it was, 99% of the time, racism that favored my white skin. Wherever I (or any other white foreigner I know) went, I had instant respect and was admired, without having to do anything to earn that respect. Why does the article, which seems well-researched, not mention this phenomenon at all? (Or maybe I've…

spotted the english lackey! try starting a real business and see how it goes.

That reads like a personal attack. We ban accounts that do that, so please don't post like this.

Re: Strategic Consequences of Chinese Racism: Strategic Asymmetry for the USA (2013) [pdf]

#58

Post by anyphoton »

sandworm101 wrote: post #44
ngcc_hk wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are so wrong. I am a hong king "chinese". I would say your way of thinking is what causing a lot of trouble. You says chinese is one race. You mean Hans. If not we are not of one race. You cannot have your culture hans and fighting Mongolian, tibetian, manuchuain ... all your thousand of years literally. Then suddenly they are chinese because in the last 100 years someone decided to occupy these people's land the…

Agreed. China is imho very diverse. Not as diverse as India, but certainly more than neighbouring nations. The government just don't like to admit it, instead promoting an image of unity in all things.

Yes, it is not environment stimulating free mind and its products.. Confusing, is not it?

Re: Strategic Consequences of Chinese Racism: Strategic Asymmetry for the USA (2013) [pdf]

#59

Post by mavelikara »

throwaway729 wrote: post #16
yosefk wrote: post #2

I know very little about China, but the report mentions in passing that racism is pervasive in Russia where I was born, whereas Western societies have done a remarkable job addressing racism. It is not obvious to me that the American approach of racial quotas in high education (which incidentally penalizes Asians very heavily today, perhaps more than any other group) is particularly different from the Soviet approach…

> I know very little about China, but the report mentions in passing that racism is pervasive in Russia where I was born, whereas Western societies have done a remarkable job addressing racism. I don't think that the report is saying "China is racist and we aren't." It's saying that the difference between the US and China is that the US struggles with its racism whereas China doesn't. Or, at the very least, that this…

> In other words, they have no qualms with racism -- only with racism against Han Chinese.

Reminded me of the reaction to Peter Liang's indictment. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Akai_Gurley#Chines... :

  More than 3,000 Chinese-Americans showed up at 
  New York City Hall in March 2015 to support Liang. 
  Thousands walked across the Brooklyn Bridge to 
  Manhattan's Chinatown in April, feeling that Liang 
  was being used as a scapegoat, and demanded the 
  charges to be dropped, as other, white police officers 
  were previously not charged.
And earlier today I read the following excerpt from the press conference of Sunayana Dumala, the widow of Srinivas Kuchibhotla, the Indian man shot dead at Kansas.

  "I was told that that guy very proudly went to another bar 
  and told that he shot two Muslim guys. How did he decide 
  that by the color of a person? Does the color of the person 
  state that he is a Muslim, a Hindu or a Christian? No. So 
  how did that guy decide that?"
Apparently, the grievance seems to be that Srinivas Kuchibhotla is not Muslim, but was mistook to be one unfairly based on his complexion.

Re: Strategic Consequences of Chinese Racism: Strategic Asymmetry for the USA (2013) [pdf]

#60

Post by frozenport »

pmarreck wrote: post #32
vtange wrote: post #19

I'm Chinese American. I won't claim to represent everyone and everything Chinese, here are my two cents. China is what happens when you enclose a really big population in a box. And this box is really comfortable; you have little incentive to go outside of it. You have the company of millions of other Chinese folk, and Chinese culture and its derivatives (to this day many of us see Korea and Japan as copies of Chines…

Between this and http://shanghaiist.com/2015/11/19/study_says_china_least_hon... (many other references to this phenomenon such as https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/culture-matters-chinese-asian... and https://thelinguafranca.wordpress.com/2008/03/25/do-the-chin... ), it doesn't make China look that fantastic. Debating whether it's lying or "lying" seems a lot like debating whether it's racism or "racism."

And then these students tell me that in China what they did wouldn't be considered cheating. And then they come to work as graduate students and visiting scholars, and tell me that what they did wouldn't be considered violations of academic integrity.
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