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What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

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Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#431

Post by [deleted] »

alainv wrote: post #321
dave_sullivan wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agree. Starting with "Well," suggests it somehow negates my point though. I think "Also" would be more appropriate, which kind of acknowledges the problems in other countries I cited while also pointing out very real weaknesses in America's justice system. This might seem pedantic, but the common reply I see to "this country does bad stuff" reduces to "well this country does bad stuff too!" It's not a product…

But... your previous post specifically says "China is willing to kidnap people out of Thailand" and goes on to say "I really hope the U.S. never comes close to this". Can you explain how exactly the U.S. has yet to "come close to" your list? Your post created the very "us vs them" separation you now claim to disagree with. The child post was fairly clearly just answering that statement And while we're talking deflect…

[deleted]

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#432

Post by kyleblarson »

tptacek wrote: post #128
adekok wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or, to simply stop traveling to countries that refuse to play nice with the rights of foreigners. s/foreigners/citizens/ i.e. everyone . I'm a Canadian Citizen. When I enter Canada from abroad, they claim the same rights as the US CBP. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/alain-philippon-cb...

I was detained and aggressively searched at the Canadian border (Montana/Alberta, for about 2 hours) in 1997; not because they thought I was a terrorist, but because they wanted to confirm that I wasn't coming to Canada to work. Friends of mine were turned back at the Canadian border later that same year. Canada has always claimed these rights.

I live in Washington and go to Whistler quite often to mountain bike. I've probably crossed the border 25 times in the last few years, and the only thing that the Canadian border patrol seems to care about is that I'm not bringing weapons into Canada. I wonder if they have knowledge that I have a CCW in WA. But in general they are always quite polite about things, which I can't say about crossing the border on the return trip.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#433

Post by WildUtah »

tptacek wrote: post #406
WildUtah wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you know something they want to know and they decide to make you reveal it, then you have the choice of going back home or revealing it. Entering the USA is not a right unless you are a citizen. But you're much more vulnerable if you bring data with you. The first level of protection is making a backup, formatting your devices as new, and restoring once you're on US soil. Better yet is not bringing devices at all.…

If you're a non-citizen and you choose to go back home, you're probably also choosing not to be admitted back into the US for a long stretch of time, at least without a struggle.

Yes, it's a small but real risk foreigners should consider every time they chose to cross the US border.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#434

Post by dave_sullivan »

alainv wrote: post #321
dave_sullivan wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agree. Starting with "Well," suggests it somehow negates my point though. I think "Also" would be more appropriate, which kind of acknowledges the problems in other countries I cited while also pointing out very real weaknesses in America's justice system. This might seem pedantic, but the common reply I see to "this country does bad stuff" reduces to "well this country does bad stuff too!" It's not a product…

But... your previous post specifically says "China is willing to kidnap people out of Thailand" and goes on to say "I really hope the U.S. never comes close to this". Can you explain how exactly the U.S. has yet to "come close to" your list? Your post created the very "us vs them" separation you now claim to disagree with. The child post was fairly clearly just answering that statement And while we're talking deflect…

> Can you explain how exactly the U.S. has yet to "come close to" your list?

Show me a similar incident to the Chinese booksellers thing in America. Or anyone being killed because they represented the political opposition. Miles away.

But that's not even my point. My point is: read the links listed; I'm not traveling to those countries; I hope the world becomes less crazy. That's all!

> And while we're talking deflection, you are the one who took a thread about the US border and its impact on travellers and made it about civil rights abuses by the rest of the world

Huh? I posted some links above. People should read them and make up their own mind, in addition to the OP. It's not a "one or the other" kind of thing, not sure why it would be.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#435

Post by godgod »

tptacek wrote: post #3

Worth remembering: US citizens can play chicken with CBP and lose nothing more than their computer/phone hardware (perhaps having it returned 6 months later). But non-citizens, possibly including LPRs, cannot: if an alien attempts to cross the border with a device they can't unlock "because they don't have the corresponding 2FA token with them" (as one friend suggested they do), they'll be detained, their devices con…

Exactly why facebook forces you to use your real name. What if you don't have facebook?

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#436

Post by patio11 »

tptacek wrote: post #406
WildUtah wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you know something they want to know and they decide to make you reveal it, then you have the choice of going back home or revealing it. Entering the USA is not a right unless you are a citizen. But you're much more vulnerable if you bring data with you. The first level of protection is making a backup, formatting your devices as new, and restoring once you're on US soil. Better yet is not bringing devices at all.…

If you're a non-citizen and you choose to go back home, you're probably also choosing not to be admitted back into the US for a long stretch of time, at least without a struggle.

This depends on the particulars of what happened, and it's going to be difficult for most non-experts to navigate, in the same fashion as "determine whether this code is Python or Ruby" is difficult if you've never seen a command line.

Say you're talking to your friendly neighborhood CBP officer and they say this:

"I think you're an immigration risk and, accordingly, I'm issuing an Order for Expedited Removal. You get on the next plane back home." Your passport gets tagged with a 5 year timeout.

However, they could say something like:

"I think you're not eligible for the Visa Waiver Program, because some factors suggest you're an immigration risk. I recommend you withdraw your application for entry into the United States and voluntarily get on the next plane back home." You will not get timed out for 5 years.

Note that the second one is neither a recommendation nor a request.

Disclaimer: IANAL but IA someone who has to have an anomalously-good-for-most-Americans understanding of immigration procedure.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#437

Post by bitJericho »

PeterisP wrote: post #315
danudey wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My philosophy is that Facebook provides a window into who I am and what I do, but also who my friends are and what they do . Gaining access to my Facebook account doesn't just tell them about me, it tells them about everyone I know. It lets them harvest the feeds of everyone who's ever friended me and then not stuck me in a 'sees none of my posts' group. Even if I've never posted anything on FB that they'd find objec…

Call me cynical, but I believe that those concerns are totally unfounded because the "evil government" doesn't need your FB login for that, IMHO they most likely can access that information directly without your consent. I would be really surprised if they really had to do this mass harvesting of profiles based on a series of one-time access to individual profiles of a small fraction of population; They had much more…

In one breath you say the government would coordinate sharing fb data, in the other you say they don't. Which one is it?

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#438

Post by ridgeguy »

Borealid wrote: post #170
iak8god wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But searches incident to a border crossing have always been considered not "unreasonable," because inspecting the flow of things across the border has always been seen as a legitimate government function. ... > So searches of digital content are at least outside one of the key purposes of the border search exception. Yes. And also, who in their right mind would use a phone and an airline ticket to smuggle at most 3…

I feel obligated to point out that: 1. my phone has a 200GB microSD card in it right now 2. 256GB microSD cards are readily available 3. phones with two microSD cards are available 4. I can easily purchase a 4TB hard drive that is roughly the same size as a pack of cards It's not terribly relevant, but you're dramatically underestimating the volume of data that can be reasonably stored by media carried on one's perso…

I'm curious - if one carries a microSD card in one's mouth, will mm-wave or X-ray backscatter airport scanners see it?

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#439

Post by MrDosu »

19128391 wrote: post #282
MrDosu wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a German tourist the most annoying thing getting into Canada is to wait in line while all these other nationalities get questioned extensively before being waved through in 20secs. Wear your bright colored gore tex jackets guys!

Sorry if I'm spoiling a joke here, but does a Berghaus gore tex jacket really give you credibility at the border?

Paired with socked sandals ofc...

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#440

Post by prawn »

tptacek wrote: post #372
infinite8s wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Say you bring no electronic hardware. Could they make you login to your social media accounts from one of their computers?

Yes, they can.

Any speculation as to what might happen in that situation if your password is non-trivial and not with you?
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