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What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

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Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#401

Post by anigbrowl »

danbruc wrote: post #225
bflesch wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The country you're travelling to doesn't owe you anything. In some areas of the world, border guards will shoot or rob you. If you don't take part in any shit that annoys the powers that be, you will most likely never be approached by border guards at all. I really think that as citizens of the western world we are in no position to argue that travelling between countries is bad or cumbersome for us. Edit: To answer…

Every country owes you basic human rights. Sure, even basic human rights are just a concept humans invented and you can certainly have a country that just says no, we believe the idea of basic human rights is wrong. That would certainly be a very nice place to live. I on the other hand would certainly refrain from visiting it.

Rights are only as strong as your ability to assert them.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#402

Post by MiddleEndian »

OJFord wrote: post #293
graeme wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. Since they may ask for social media passwords, would that imply making a travel profile for my travel devices that has password access to things like Facebook and a subset of sites I'd need, but not necessarily all 400+ of my logins? I don't care if they login to my Facebook (well, I think I don't). I just don't want to have them have everything , because then I'd have to change it all. To be very clear, not p…

Why is this being accepted as even remotely reasonable? What about 'login with Facebook' sites? We here know that we should change our password and logout of existing sessions ASAP after being made to do it, but our non-technical family members may not. "Add TSA as a friend" is borderline reasonable, (pun intended) "give us your password" is not even close. It also damages public awareness of importance of maintainin…

Login with gmail/Facebook isn't that awful. They won't get your login credentials and you don't have to set a password. It's kind of like having a super fast "verification email" every time you log in.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#403

Post by andrewflnr »

67726e wrote: post #229
dave_sullivan wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Real" spies and terrorists and whatever can obviously afford to setup enough cover. > It's bizarre how people don't think ahead to their border crossing and are willing to admit they are going to live with their SO, or work as a nanny -- while under a tourism visa. So we're not catching "real" spies and terrorists; we're catching nannies trying to get paid under the table; do you think maybe we've got bigger fish…

Rule of Law.

It's so obvious as to hardly bear mentioning, but you can use this to excuse any violation of rights if you want. Sometimes "rule of law" just isn't worth it.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#404

Post by subpixel »

llamataboot wrote: post #268
tptacek wrote: post #3

Worth remembering: US citizens can play chicken with CBP and lose nothing more than their computer/phone hardware (perhaps having it returned 6 months later). But non-citizens, possibly including LPRs, cannot: if an alien attempts to cross the border with a device they can't unlock "because they don't have the corresponding 2FA token with them" (as one friend suggested they do), they'll be detained, their devices con…

This, to some extent was already happening. The last time my partner came into the US on a visa waiver (from the EU) before our fiancee visa was approved, her entire PUBLIC facebook wall was printed out and waiting for her in an interrogation room at O'Hare. (This was a few years ago now) -- it was a little eerie b/c her facebook is not under her "real name" - that is not the name on the flight manifest. So it took s…

The most troubling thing to me is that all of this is device-agnostic. They know you have a Facebook account and they can find it even if it's not in your name. So now when you return to the US they may very well demand that you provide them your Facebook login credentials. If you're not a USC and face getting put right back on a plane to Turkey, will you refuse?

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#405

Post by tptacek »

samstave wrote: post #394
tptacek wrote: post #3

Worth remembering: US citizens can play chicken with CBP and lose nothing more than their computer/phone hardware (perhaps having it returned 6 months later). But non-citizens, possibly including LPRs, cannot: if an alien attempts to cross the border with a device they can't unlock "because they don't have the corresponding 2FA token with them" (as one friend suggested they do), they'll be detained, their devices con…

A cool idea might be to have a device-image that you can load on your phone for in-country and one for out-country, and a method for selecting from your in-country image the only stuff you want to copy to the out-country... like contacts, certain apps, certain passwords/bank/passport etc... Also, whats an LPR?

If you can recover your data at the border, and you're not a citizen, you should be prepared to do so. There's no clever trick that scales to ordinary people that protects data from CBP. That's the think people need to be clear on: it's inconvenient, but they need to not only not be carrying sensitive encrypted data at the border, but also not carrying any indication that they have it, or have any such indication attached to their name.

An LPR is a green-card holder, a lawful permanent resident.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#406

Post by tptacek »

WildUtah wrote: post #397
dzhiurgis wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if they can force you unlock your Facebook, can't they force you unlock your Gmail, AWS, Salesforce, internal company archive or some actually classified missile bunker?

If you know something they want to know and they decide to make you reveal it, then you have the choice of going back home or revealing it. Entering the USA is not a right unless you are a citizen. But you're much more vulnerable if you bring data with you. The first level of protection is making a backup, formatting your devices as new, and restoring once you're on US soil. Better yet is not bringing devices at all.…

If you're a non-citizen and you choose to go back home, you're probably also choosing not to be admitted back into the US for a long stretch of time, at least without a struggle.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#407

Post by danbruc »

anigbrowl wrote: post #401
danbruc wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every country owes you basic human rights. Sure, even basic human rights are just a concept humans invented and you can certainly have a country that just says no, we believe the idea of basic human rights is wrong. That would certainly be a very nice place to live. I on the other hand would certainly refrain from visiting it.

Rights are only as strong as your ability to assert them.

So I should probably bring guns and explosives to the airport to lend some weight to my rights in case somebody has a differing opinion. That could turn out quite interesting...

And now I am left wondering if comments like this make it harder to get through the airport. How humorless and paranoid is the system?

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#408

Post by Jade_Jet »

Accacin wrote: post #385
soft_dev_person wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I pretty much decided to never travel to the US again the first time I heard you may be compelled to unlock your Facebook profile for the customs. Not because I have something particular to hide, but as a gay person in a hostile world I have learned to care about my privacy. Not a huge loss for me, not a huge loss for the US, but it accumulates.

I don't want to be one of those people who go on about the fact that they're not on Facebook, but what if they asked me for my Facebook logins and I told them I don't have any social media accounts? (I mean, bar Github if you count that as a social network).

Same situation for me. I wonder if I'd get treated like a liar and a criminal for not using a commercial product.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#409

Post by zeveb »

OJFord wrote: post #370
zeveb wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is this being accepted as even remotely reasonable? That it's unreasonable and unacceptable doesn't mean that it's illegal. Despite your and my hopes, not all unreasonable and unacceptable things are illegal. > What about 'login with Facebook' sites? Don't do that then. > We here know that we should change our password and logout of existing sessions ASAP after being made to do it, but our non-technical family…

You're missing my point entirely: People do 'login with Facebook'; people will (perhaps grudgingly) log in for them/hand over their password. You won't, I won't, but people will because they're asked to by the uniformed officer, despite how mad it is. I'm just amazed at the lack of significant opposition to this, there doesn't even really seem to be any opposition. Here on HN where one might expect it to be most oppo…

> I'm just amazed at the lack of significant opposition to this

I'm amazed at all the many ways people will give up their rights, and yet folks continue to advocate for their rights to be taken away.

> Here on HN where one might expect it to be most opposed, we're merely discussing how to mitigate the effects (you can't, don't go - or be prepared to be turned around).

I can't change the law, but I can change my behaviour.

> I wouldn't pay for my own travel to the USA (while I've been before, and enjoyed my trips, etc.) because I'm not an idiot - and handing over a password is idiotic - and I can't really afford a wasted trip. Sure, sunk cost, whatever - the cost/risk isn't worth it, at least for now until it's shown that they rarely do it, and really it's only x,y,z countries from where I do not hail.

a) they rarely do it (roughly 4,500 times last year, IIRC)

b) any country might do it, and many do; this is not a U.S.-only thing

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#410

Post by jensvdh »

tptacek wrote: post #372
infinite8s wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Say you bring no electronic hardware. Could they make you login to your social media accounts from one of their computers?

Yes, they can.

What about 2-factor? Should i just disable it?
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