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What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

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Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#391

Post by jacquesm »

somethingsimple wrote: post #349
whatever_dude wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brazil has a weird policy (the "reciprocity" law) that makes them apply to visitors from some countries whatever that country applies to visitors from Brazil. In theory that only applies to what kind of visas are necessary, but often they do so in terms of immigration/customs policy too. So yeah, a while ago the US started requiring electronic fingerprints from Brazilian visitors (and everyone else I think?) so that'…

I don't think that's weird, I think it's pretty awesome. But I'm biased, since I'm Brazilian :)

I'm not Brazilian and I think it's awesome too. More countries should do this.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#392

Post by anigbrowl »

jacquesm wrote: post #39
tptacek wrote: post #3

Worth remembering: US citizens can play chicken with CBP and lose nothing more than their computer/phone hardware (perhaps having it returned 6 months later). But non-citizens, possibly including LPRs, cannot: if an alien attempts to cross the border with a device they can't unlock "because they don't have the corresponding 2FA token with them" (as one friend suggested they do), they'll be detained, their devices con…

> The current best practice for border crossings --- really anywhere in the world --- is simply not to carry anything you're unwilling to unlock for Customs. Or, to simply stop traveling to countries that refuse to play nice with the rights of foreigners. The whole idea that this sort of thing is even anywhere near acceptable behavior revolts me.

I usually agree with you but I question the validity of that approach. Insofar as freedom is compromised in the US, it's likely to have a substantial ripple effect, just as economic upsets do. Were the US ever to devolve into an autocracy, it's not like there is any other country positioned to sweoop in and save the day.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#393

Post by pvg »

coldtea wrote: post #383
pvg wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's as if e.g. Baja California had 60% population It's not 'as if' and you're regurgitating Russian propaganda and shallow whataboutism. The key issue is Russia invaded and annexed a piece of a sovereign country, a country whose territorial integrity it was bound to respect not just by international norms but a relatively recent treaty. It just isn't comparable.

> It's not 'as if' Actually it is just like that. What part did you find unlike that? The "sovereignty"? Mexico, which I used as my example, is also sovereign. And the rest of the things are all true: Ukraine is directly in Russia's borders, it has areas with large ethnic Russian population, and it's legitimate government was toppled. Even the part about bona fide neo-nazis being part of the power coalition is true.…

it's legitimate government was toppled. Even the part about bona fide neo-nazis being part of the power coalition is true.

This is inaccurate and you can read pretty much any reporting that isn't from RT at the time that confirms that it is not.

No, I'm rather not force-fed with BS west propaganda for the events. (And I'm not Russian either, so it's not like I have a horse in the race. I just can't stand hypocrisy).

It's not hypocrisy. You are simply deeply misinformed and equating reliable sources and unreliable ones.

And I'm not Russian either

I am, if it helps you believe me. You have no idea what you're talking about. I don't think you can find a serious analyst of these issues, of any political leaning or ideological stripe who will not tell you this was aggression. It's killing people as we type. I get the desire to be a clear-eyed critic of the US but what you're doing is providing excuses for immoral things. You should reconsider doing that, I'll leave it at that.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#394

Post by samstave »

tptacek wrote: post #3

Worth remembering: US citizens can play chicken with CBP and lose nothing more than their computer/phone hardware (perhaps having it returned 6 months later). But non-citizens, possibly including LPRs, cannot: if an alien attempts to cross the border with a device they can't unlock "because they don't have the corresponding 2FA token with them" (as one friend suggested they do), they'll be detained, their devices con…

A cool idea might be to have a device-image that you can load on your phone for in-country and one for out-country, and a method for selecting from your in-country image the only stuff you want to copy to the out-country... like contacts, certain apps, certain passwords/bank/passport etc...

Also, whats an LPR?

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#395

Post by pjlegato »

dave_sullivan wrote: post #281
coldtea wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> China is willing to kidnap people out of Thailand [1]; people being arrested over political tweets [2]; Russia can poison people [3], shoot them [4], or have them accused of fake crimes[5]. I really hope the U.S. never comes close to this Well, the US can drone-kill people (including bystanders irrelevant to the primary non-tried target), abduct them from all over the world and transport them with no trial to Guant…

Totally agree. Starting with "Well," suggests it somehow negates my point though. I think "Also" would be more appropriate, which kind of acknowledges the problems in other countries I cited while also pointing out very real weaknesses in America's justice system. This might seem pedantic, but the common reply I see to "this country does bad stuff" reduces to "well this country does bad stuff too!" It's not a product…

> the common reply I see to "this country does bad stuff" reduces to "well this country does bad stuff too!"

It's not pedantic if you care about being rational. This act is a common logical fallacy called the "tu quoque fallacy": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

Why is this a fallacy?

Suppose country A is accused of doing something bad. It's logically irrelevant to that question whether some other country B also has done something bad.

To see it more clearly, take the same fallacy on an individual level. Person A is accused of murdering someone. Is it a valid defense to say "Well, my neighbor Person B also murdered someone, therefore it's OK that I did"? No, of course not. It's totally irrelevant whether someone else -- even the accuser -- has also murdered someone.

Yet making this fallacious counter-accusation is often effective in terms of emotional (i.e. irrational) manipulation of the audience, particularly when they are predisposed against B in some way.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#396

Post by anigbrowl »

klipt wrote: post #266
anon2264 wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tagential but is it not absolutely bizzare that at the US/Can border relocating to work is seen as a deadly sin, while broader US policy has brought so many immigrants into the country since JFK? Without saying either side is right or wrong, US Gov policy wholistically appears schizophrenic

If you're on a work visa then you're being upfront about planning to work and have the appropriate visa for it. If you enter on a tourist visa (or visa waiver, whose conditions are usually the same as tourist visa) they want to be sure you aren't committing visa fraud and planning to work. That's what causes the grilling.

Yes, but why is that a big deal in the first place, vs. being offered a job and paying a small administrative fee to adjust a visa? The siege mentality is part of the problem.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#397

Post by WildUtah »

dzhiurgis wrote: post #375
tptacek wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're not a citizen, I think this is probably pretty simple: don't carry anything across the border that you would be uncomfortable being forced to unlock. There's nothing you can encrypt with a passphrase that is protected from a border search, unless you're comfortable being sent back home, losing your computer hardware, and not being allowed back to the US at least until the next Presidential administration, p…

But if they can force you unlock your Facebook, can't they force you unlock your Gmail, AWS, Salesforce, internal company archive or some actually classified missile bunker?

If you know something they want to know and they decide to make you reveal it, then you have the choice of going back home or revealing it. Entering the USA is not a right unless you are a citizen.

But you're much more vulnerable if you bring data with you. The first level of protection is making a backup, formatting your devices as new, and restoring once you're on US soil. Better yet is not bringing devices at all. But certainly don't bring secrets with you: bank records, medical records, and military secrets should never be carried with you through customs.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#398

Post by pjlegato »

jacquesm wrote: post #39
tptacek wrote: post #3

Worth remembering: US citizens can play chicken with CBP and lose nothing more than their computer/phone hardware (perhaps having it returned 6 months later). But non-citizens, possibly including LPRs, cannot: if an alien attempts to cross the border with a device they can't unlock "because they don't have the corresponding 2FA token with them" (as one friend suggested they do), they'll be detained, their devices con…

> The current best practice for border crossings --- really anywhere in the world --- is simply not to carry anything you're unwilling to unlock for Customs. Or, to simply stop traveling to countries that refuse to play nice with the rights of foreigners. The whole idea that this sort of thing is even anywhere near acceptable behavior revolts me.

This is rather naive. All countries in the world assert similar rights to search you and your devices at their borders. This is not by any means unique to the US.

This is also very rare at the US border, as it says in the article. Most countries in the world are far more aggressive about searching you, and even actively demanding bribes to let you in.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#399

Post by kutkloon7 »

Well, at 4444 times a year it doesn't seem that rare of an occurrence.

But, hey, what's new? The US has imprisoned innocent people, and tortured them multiple times a day for years and years. This is public information, and no one gives a shit. The US government really doesn't care about anyone who is not a US citizen. (And sadly, western countries mostly just let the US do whatever they want)

A women is being locked up for 8 years because she checked the wrong box on her voting form, and it is pretty common that unarmed black people get shot by cops without serious consequences.

I understand that people are upset about the possibility of having to unlock their phones, but there are far more serious indications that the US is not the great country it wants be. A lot of common sense and decency it missing in the US - and not just in the Trump administration.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#400

Post by [deleted] »

whatever_dude wrote: post #296
pc86 wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Entering Brazil as a US citizen was an interesting experience. Long pseudo-interrogation, fingerprinting, the whole nine yards. It wasn't until later I learned they basically just decided to do to all US citizens what the US was doing to Brazilians (and certainly others).

Brazil has a weird policy (the "reciprocity" law) that makes them apply to visitors from some countries whatever that country applies to visitors from Brazil. In theory that only applies to what kind of visas are necessary, but often they do so in terms of immigration/customs policy too. So yeah, a while ago the US started requiring electronic fingerprints from Brazilian visitors (and everyone else I think?) so that'…

[deleted]
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