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What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

arstechnica.com

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Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#311

Post by PeterisP »

rebuilder wrote: post #267
deong wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't matter what you have in your password manager. If you're not a US citizen, they can demand your facebook access. If you don't have it, can't unencrypt it, or just feel like telling them to fuck off doesn't matter. You have no legal right to enter the country except with their permission, and they may well tell the person who didn't put their facebook passwords in the password manager to get back on a plane…

So basically, as a non-US citizen, if you don't bring a device that can log into your Facebook account, they might deny you entry? Of course rhey might deny you entry for any reason, and them caring so much about your social media accounts is probably a sign you're on a shitlist somewhere, so maybe it doesn't matter so much. I wonder, though, if you don't have FB etc. accounts, do they believe you?

There's a big factor of subjective evaluation, but it can be quite effective.

A large majority of people do have FB accounts, and even care about their FB accounts as illustrated by their worries about providing access to them.

For most people they wouldn't bother to look, only a tiny fraction of travelers get their devices checked. And if you really don't have FB etc. accounts, they may believe you - I have little reason to doubt that; I feel that if that was their policy then we'd hear about many such cases.

However, if you claim that you don't have a FB account and their automated system (seeded by the information submitted by the airline before your arrival) shows a FB account with your face, then that seems a sure way to get turned back at a border.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#312

Post by tom_mellior »

gambiting wrote: post #192
tom_mellior wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean they actually find emails saying "good luck with your illegal work in Australia on a tourist visa, lol"?

No, but a text saying "we'll see you at work 8am on Monday" as you are entering Australia is probably good enough reason to be denied entry if you have a tourist visa.

It probably is, yes. Does that actually happen on this TV show?

(Not sure why I get downvotes but no clear answers to simple yes/no questions.)

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#313

Post by MaxfordAndSons »

civilrightsyep wrote: post #190

These discussions tend to focus on all the inane ways to subvert the border guards. The real question we should be asking is how to make this a big enough issue that it gets mainstream attention and action. We shouldn't try to figure out how to continue down the fascist path but how to change it's direction.

I agree that fighting fascism is a bigger overall concern, but I think there's a time for these practical concerns as well. Especially given that it most affects non-US citizens, who may or may not be able to have an impact on the larger issue.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#314

Post by treve »

tptacek wrote: post #3

Worth remembering: US citizens can play chicken with CBP and lose nothing more than their computer/phone hardware (perhaps having it returned 6 months later). But non-citizens, possibly including LPRs, cannot: if an alien attempts to cross the border with a device they can't unlock "because they don't have the corresponding 2FA token with them" (as one friend suggested they do), they'll be detained, their devices con…

Another option is decoy operating systems

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#315

Post by PeterisP »

danudey wrote: post #308
soft_dev_person wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I pretty much decided to never travel to the US again the first time I heard you may be compelled to unlock your Facebook profile for the customs. Not because I have something particular to hide, but as a gay person in a hostile world I have learned to care about my privacy. Not a huge loss for me, not a huge loss for the US, but it accumulates.

My philosophy is that Facebook provides a window into who I am and what I do, but also who my friends are and what they do . Gaining access to my Facebook account doesn't just tell them about me, it tells them about everyone I know. It lets them harvest the feeds of everyone who's ever friended me and then not stuck me in a 'sees none of my posts' group. Even if I've never posted anything on FB that they'd find objec…

Call me cynical, but I believe that those concerns are totally unfounded because the "evil government" doesn't need your FB login for that, IMHO they most likely can access that information directly without your consent. I would be really surprised if they really had to do this mass harvesting of profiles based on a series of one-time access to individual profiles of a small fraction of population; They had much more effective ways to do mass harvesting many years ago (as illustrated by various leaks) and probably do them now, having to involve thousands of immigration agents would be simply counterproductive.

I do believe that immigration services look at your account exclusively for their goals of evaluating immigration. They ask you to unlock your account because for them it's objectively simpler to ask that information from you than to get it from the other government agencies that have that information but won't disclose it because formally they shouldn't have it. There's no "the government", it is an amalgamation of many organizations that have conflicting goals and don't coordinate, so it's reasonable to expect that "the government" has some information and at the same time "the government" (i.e. other parts of it) don't have it and need to request it from you or do without.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#316

Post by MaxfordAndSons »

biscuitsandbbq wrote: post #38

This happened to me crossing into Canada and to be honest I really wasn't expecting it. I had tons of very private pictures and messages on there stretching back years. I really didn't want to turn over my password so that 3 border agents could look through all that stuff in some back room, but at the same time I knew there wasn't anything illegal on there. Anyway, I was with my partner and didn't want to ruin her va…

Sorry that happened to you, but that is just not good advice. Trying to fool them at all isn't advisable, and your suggested scheme involves multiple levels of deception - lying both about what you did and what your intent was, trying to appear eager to help when you're not. Most normal people are not such skilled liars, whereas border agents are always on the lookout for deception.

Also "just say that's what you normally do when entering border control" goes against the image you're trying to create.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#318

Post by z5h »

bflesch wrote: post #219
z5h wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This might actually be the preferred choice for some people who wish to attempt travel, but are unwilling to sacrifice personal private.

And? The target country doesn't lose anything through this if some entitled internet privacy advocates without big business stop travelling to it. Everyone who is serious about coming actually handles immigration/border tax like an adult. Nobody cares about your private life unless you are trying to affect others negatively.

Wrong: The target country loses money.

Wrong: Everyone who is serious about travelling can make their own choices about tradeoffs. That's what being an adult is all about.

Correction: "Nobody cares about your private life unless you are trying to affect others negatively, OR if they can use that information for personal gains, even if at a loss to you."

I'm done fixing your mistakes. Cheers.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#319

Post by gravypod »

Forbo wrote: post #44
gravypod wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you call hacker news social media then you can definitely do it. I do it. I just call or text the people I care about when I'm thinking of them. Nothing is needed from social media.

Yes, I love giving in to chilling effects that modify my behavior out of fear of consequences! Or perhaps a government shouldn't be party to my social life?

> chilling effects that modify my behavior

I never modified my behavior. I just don't like the layout/UX of facebook/twitter.

> out of fear of consequences

This isn't being done for any specific reason, it's just a side effect of my dislike of their UI, management, and moderation.

> Or perhaps a government shouldn't be party to my social life?

If I'm texting, the government has it. I don't know what you are on about.

Re: What could happen if you refuse to unlock your phone at the US border?

#320

Post by crpatino »

M_Grey wrote: post #102
tptacek wrote: post #3

Worth remembering: US citizens can play chicken with CBP and lose nothing more than their computer/phone hardware (perhaps having it returned 6 months later). But non-citizens, possibly including LPRs, cannot: if an alien attempts to cross the border with a device they can't unlock "because they don't have the corresponding 2FA token with them" (as one friend suggested they do), they'll be detained, their devices con…

Solution: No Facebook (which is a solution to so many other problems too), partition and hide what you don't want browsed by some inept CBP agent, and then play your part in their security theatre. It might even be nice if someone could make some programs that offer false home screens for various devices that only open when a given password is input... your CBP "clean slate". Don't say, "I don't have x,y,z..." accoun…

It is probably a bad idea to try to fool a federal agent with "false home screens"... but I upvoted nonetheless because of the "No Facebook" part.

A feature I really would want to see from social media is read-only, time limited passwords. You provide this to a 3rd party and they can see everything you do, but change nothing. Upon first activation, you grant 72hrs access and don't have to remember to change the password again. If this activation does not happen within 15 days of first activation, the password is invalidated.

Acknowledging that this is a valid use case has many benefits. Social media provider can check if the password is used from government or corporate IP addresses and block non legitimate access (like, a rouge CBP employee stealing credentials and stalking individuals from his home computer). It would also be possible to keep logs of which information was accessed/consulted by each one time password, which can be used during investigations if some form or another of abuse is reported, etc.

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