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Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

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Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#121
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Collective labor action is a negotiation, so I guess your point is that employees can "extort" you with the "threat" of a fair negotiation? Using that kind of sensational language to describe something routine makes it hard to take you seriously.

The threat is not "a better deal or we'll quit", that's a perfectly fair response to unacceptable conditions (and "other people will take this deal" is a perfectly fair counter). The threat is "it'd be a shame if something were to happen to your business, like a lawsuit or a fire". That's the difference between negotiation and extortion, and that's what's behind all the union/mafia links.

A collective labor action is literally "a better deal or we all quit." Why do you assume that unionized developers would resort to violence or baseless litigation?

Medical doctors, university professors, and librarians are largely unionized. Do you believe the American Association of University Professors threatens colleges with arson when negotiations aren't going the way they want them to?

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#122
post #2

If it wasn't for Steve Jobs we might have agents like Hollywood actors. To me the real question is why don't we have agents like actors and basketball players? We could be like actors and have both a union and our own agents. But thanks to Jobs conspiring to hold back engineer income we have a situation where we are often leveraged into poverty.

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#123
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- "Hi, we decided to change the terms of your contract and you have to sign this document right now... or else." - "Sorry, I need to talk with he Union first to see what my options." - "Hi, we decided that you need to come to work all the weekends in March and we still have to decide if we will pay for the overtime and how much". - "Mmm... Well, let me ask the Union, but I think that this is not going to happen... I…

All of those response are incorrect. The correct answer is "I can call my network and have five offers inside of a month that pay me as much or more than I'm making here." If you need a union to push back for you, well, sorry but most likely you're not keeping up with the average for your profession.

At this moment developers have an unusual power that comes because of the scarcity of good developers. This does not happen in many other professions and will, for sure, not last forever for the programmers. The day you won't be able to just walk to the next company, you will miss to have the power to negotiate with your employer and not just obey him or run away.

Do you remember 2004?

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#124
post #85
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- "Hi, we decided to change the terms of your contract and you have to sign this document right now... or else." - "Sorry, I need to talk with he Union first to see what my options." - "Hi, we decided that you need to come to work all the weekends in March and we still have to decide if we will pay for the overtime and how much". - "Mmm... Well, let me ask the Union, but I think that this is not going to happen... I…

Apart from US, in which countries: 1. employer is allowed to unilaterally change contract with employee? 2. employer is allowed not to pay for overtime? 3. employer can fire somebody at a whim? In my country all three are forbidden by law , and I haven't talked about unions yet.

The fact that the law says that something is forbidden, it does not mean that all the companies comply, having something on your side helps you a lot when you fight the company to make them follow the law. Also, my examples are quite clear, but there are always grays.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#125

"Why am I getting reprimanded?" "Because you ran a unit test..." "What is wrong with that?" "It's Brian's job to press that key, not yours. You violated Union rules"

Ehh, there's a reason I started the thread off with "not your Dad or Grandma's union". :) Why can't there be another way than the way our grandparents' unionized?

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#126
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fully agree.. but I wonder what would happen if unions started to take a leaf out of the 'no poaching' corporate playbook and simply unionised secretly. Collective bargaining via synchronised individual bargaining, where everyone demands the same conditions on their employment. (Surely this could be appified ;) Perhaps if there were no official union, the vicious knock down would be much more difficult to focus. And…

Unions are essentially a form of cartel, and they suffer from all the same organizational problems. Workers are faced with a prisoner's dilemma. The best individual choice is always to defect. To keep a unified front you need some sort of centralized force that prevents people from defecting. In traditional unions, it is enforced by law that all employees must join the union if the shop is unionized. A secret volunta…

>In traditional unions, it is enforced by law that all employees must join the union if the shop is unionized.

That very much depends on the jurisdiction. Closed-shops are illegal in Europe.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#127

I can only speak for myself, but I will never join a union. It's a political thing for me. I know not everyone feels that way, but I also know that I'm not the only one strongly opposed to unionization.

I completely understand. How do you feel about collective bargaining in general? Consider a case where let's say the founder of an extremely successful yet 50 person software company sells the company for an ungodly sum ($250mil+) to Corporation X but as a part of that deal this founder doesn't provide any equity to 80% of his/her employees who helped build the company? What should they do then?

> How do you feel about collective bargaining in general?

In a perfect world, where the government doesn't restrain the company from firing everyone and hiring new employees, I'm fine with it. I wouldn't want to participate, but I see no reason why it would be a unfair.

> Consider a case where let's say the founder of an extremely successful yet 50 person software company sells the company for an ungodly sum ($250mil+) to Corporation X but as a part of that deal this founder doesn't provide any equity to 80% of his/her employees who helped build the company?

> What should they do then?

Either continue working for the new owners or find employment elsewhere.

If employees wanted equity, then they should have negotiated that as part of their terms of employment.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#128

I can only speak for myself, but I will never join a union. It's a political thing for me. I know not everyone feels that way, but I also know that I'm not the only one strongly opposed to unionization.

Would you join a police officer's union?

I would not - but then, I would never be a police officer either.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#129

I can only speak for myself, but I will never join a union. It's a political thing for me. I know not everyone feels that way, but I also know that I'm not the only one strongly opposed to unionization.

Scab!

I'll wear the title with pride, thanks.
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