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Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

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Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#111

Post by paulddraper »

Kalium wrote: post #20

What could I expect to change in my daily working life by joining your "new model union"? Unions got buy-in from workers because they offered tangible benefits to workers. Shorter days, medical care, better pay, and so on. The items you list are public policy concerns that align well with a variety of advocacy groups. In virtually all cases, a specialist advocacy group seems better-suited to addressing the problem th…

Exactly. Emphasis on a variety of advocacy groups.

The scope of this is so diverse no organization, union or otherwise could advocate for all this to the satisfaction of its constituents.

"Counterbalance corporate interests"

What is that? There's really only one unifying corporate interest, and that is to profit, which is generally speaking a Good Idea.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#112

Post by dexterdog »

kukac wrote: post #50
shams93 wrote: post #2

If it wasn't for Steve Jobs we might have agents like Hollywood actors. To me the real question is why don't we have agents like actors and basketball players? We could be like actors and have both a union and our own agents. But thanks to Jobs conspiring to hold back engineer income we have a situation where we are often leveraged into poverty.

Why would developers need agents? Hollywood actors earn orders of magnitude more than your average 10X-er developer.

Even starving actors typically have agents.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#113

Post by w_t_payne »

Unions may be the wrong model. I'd prefer to see developers organise along the same lines as the legal profession. I.e. instead of encouraging more people to enter the profession we start to lobby for legislation that erects barriers, requires professional qualifications etc... We should restrict the supply of developers and start to perpetuate memes that normalise a significant increase in societal and economic status.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#114

Post by prodigal_erik »

giaour wrote: post #105
prodigal_erik wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Extortion is the only power a union can wield. We have a name for that kind of organization and it's a hell of a lot more damning than "scab".

Extortion is not the only power a union can wield. They can also engage in collective labor action per the National Labor Relations Act[1]. [1] https://www.nlrb.gov/resources/national-labor-relations-act

"Collective labor action" is another kind of threat used against managers who might otherwise accept a better offer from other workers. We've surrendered and begin to encourage unions to perform their extortion in open court to reduce the body count.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#115

Post by pryelluw »

nightski wrote: post #17
quinequine wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on where you're at, right? You'll find tons of developers on Upwork willing to work for less. Isn't that the future for most of us? We're tomorrow's factory workers. Corporations have already shown that they'll work to suppress wages. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L... The long game is to promote STEM fields and increase supply - pushing down wages and benefits.

No offense, because this isn't directed at you specifically, but developers on Upwork selling themselves short are doing so because they lack the social skills necessary to thrive in a freelance environment. There are so many business opportunities to build quality software for a very steep price it's incredible. But developers can have a pretty hard time understanding how to sell themselves.

Could you point to these opportunities? One concrete opportunity. Please and thank you.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#116

Post by Nomentatus »

quinequine wrote: post #87
Kalium wrote: post #20

What could I expect to change in my daily working life by joining your "new model union"? Unions got buy-in from workers because they offered tangible benefits to workers. Shorter days, medical care, better pay, and so on. The items you list are public policy concerns that align well with a variety of advocacy groups. In virtually all cases, a specialist advocacy group seems better-suited to addressing the problem th…

You're right. Most developers could care less about anything that doesn't impact their daily working life. But I would argue that issues like wage suppression, security, and privacy have a huge impact on our work-life balance, income and the software we write. An organization of developers dedicated to collective bargaining would be able to support advocacy groups and give them teeth in their dealings with large mult…

The law in the U.S. now prevents sofware developers from getting overtime pay. Start by getting that, which might reduce stress and the suicide rate of developers.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#117

Post by ThrowawayR2 »

quinequine wrote: post #87
Kalium wrote: post #20

What could I expect to change in my daily working life by joining your "new model union"? Unions got buy-in from workers because they offered tangible benefits to workers. Shorter days, medical care, better pay, and so on. The items you list are public policy concerns that align well with a variety of advocacy groups. In virtually all cases, a specialist advocacy group seems better-suited to addressing the problem th…

You're right. Most developers could care less about anything that doesn't impact their daily working life. But I would argue that issues like wage suppression, security, and privacy have a huge impact on our work-life balance, income and the software we write. An organization of developers dedicated to collective bargaining would be able to support advocacy groups and give them teeth in their dealings with large mult…

> ...security, ...

Who's implementing the security? Developers and operations. I seriously doubt the union is going to be naming and shaming their own membership for shoddy work.

> ...privacy...

If developers cared about that, nobody would be working at all these advertising supported businesses and Google would be a forgotten footnote in history. Here too, such a union would be alienating a large portion of its potential members.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#118

Post by kahnpro »

Unfortunately so many developers are making enough money that it goes to their heads. The demand for our skills gives us a very rare luxury that we can actually negotiate employment contracts somewhat fairly, and so many developers just cannot conceive of other professions where it's the company's way or the highway.

We don't face enough hardships to see the value in unions. Unfortunately it won't last forever.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#119

Post by giaour »

prodigal_erik wrote: post #114
giaour wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Extortion is not the only power a union can wield. They can also engage in collective labor action per the National Labor Relations Act[1]. [1] https://www.nlrb.gov/resources/national-labor-relations-act

"Collective labor action" is another kind of threat used against managers who might otherwise accept a better offer from other workers. We've surrendered and begin to encourage unions to perform their extortion in open court to reduce the body count.

Collective labor action is a negotiation, so I guess your point is that employees can "extort" you with the "threat" of a fair negotiation?

Using that kind of sensational language to describe something routine makes it hard to take you seriously.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#120

Post by prodigal_erik »

giaour wrote: post #119
prodigal_erik wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Collective labor action" is another kind of threat used against managers who might otherwise accept a better offer from other workers. We've surrendered and begin to encourage unions to perform their extortion in open court to reduce the body count.

Collective labor action is a negotiation, so I guess your point is that employees can "extort" you with the "threat" of a fair negotiation? Using that kind of sensational language to describe something routine makes it hard to take you seriously.

The threat is not "a better deal or we'll quit", that's a perfectly fair response to unacceptable conditions (and "other people will take this deal" is a perfectly fair counter). The threat is "it'd be a shame if something were to happen to your business, like a lawsuit or a fire". That's the difference between negotiation and extortion, and that's what's behind all the union/mafia links.
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