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Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

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Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#81

Post by goelevator »

Unionization doesn't provide freedom, it provides more structure. Sure it can benefit you as times are hard, but unlike physical labor or hazardous work conditions, the need that you seem to be wanting is not a union. You are looking for ways for the status quo of employees to change from their employers. The ownership and lack of respect many companies have on their employees can create issues.

What if instead you fought for a different system that would put more control in the hands of groups of developers without unions? What if you solidified what it meant to create teams that can stand up for what they believe inside the organizations?

I think teams will end up running most organizations, if many are not already. I read everyday about some team leaving and forming an entire product for another company. Why is this so hard on a massive scale?

Why not create a movement for teams inside companies to change the relation vs external structures like unions.

Forget unions. Build your teams and stand up for what the team believes in, regardless of what company you work for.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#82

Post by kakamba »

aerovistae wrote: post #14

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I feel like people unionize when they're being taken advantage of and need to fight for better employment conditions....but developers have it pretty nice, all in all, most of us. I don't feel much incentive to unionize when I'm making $50/hr+ and have unlimited vacation.

I agree with you, that is one side of unionization, but you don't need to suffer to build a union. I am also in the bay area and have a pretty decent working conditions.

However, if a sector creates a substantial value to the economy, their unions affect governing organs, they heavily influence cities or states to work in their favor not against them. If we look at for instance how tech companies are treated in bay area vs the automotive giants over in Detroit, or potato farmers in Idaho we can see the difference.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#83

Post by rkofman »

cam_l wrote: post #68
slavik81 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions are essentially a form of cartel, and they suffer from all the same organizational problems. Workers are faced with a prisoner's dilemma. The best individual choice is always to defect. To keep a unified front you need some sort of centralized force that prevents people from defecting. In traditional unions, it is enforced by law that all employees must join the union if the shop is unionized. A secret volunta…

True. But corporates seems to survive with majority cooperation and occasional defection. Perhaps there does need to be some mechanism to 'tat' the 'tits' who defect. My take is that the major obstacle workers face in negotiating conditions, pay, and work, is information asymmetry. Having everyone negotiate from an increased negotiating position should help the honest workers as well as the defectors.. and one would…

If all you're looking for is information symmetry, you don't need unions. You just need to have a representative sample publicly publish their salaries / other comp details.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#84

Post by prodigal_erik »

wattt wrote: post #49
solipsism wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scab!

I wish you weren't being downvoted! If you join an organization that is union you should almost certainly join. Otherwise... You're a scab. That's how it goes. Sorry HN doesn't see reality.

Extortion is the only power a union can wield. We have a name for that kind of organization and it's a hell of a lot more damning than "scab".

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#85

Post by dozzie »

6t6t6t6 wrote: post #71
mrmaximus wrote: post #21

"Why am I getting reprimanded?" "Because you ran a unit test..." "What is wrong with that?" "It's Brian's job to press that key, not yours. You violated Union rules"

- "Hi, we decided to change the terms of your contract and you have to sign this document right now... or else." - "Sorry, I need to talk with he Union first to see what my options." - "Hi, we decided that you need to come to work all the weekends in March and we still have to decide if we will pay for the overtime and how much". - "Mmm... Well, let me ask the Union, but I think that this is not going to happen... I…

Apart from US, in which countries:

1. employer is allowed to unilaterally change contract with employee?

2. employer is allowed not to pay for overtime?

3. employer can fire somebody at a whim?

In my country all three are forbidden by law, and I haven't talked about unions yet.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#86

Post by specialist »

solipsism wrote: post #31

I think a key component to unions is a marked class dichotomy. Blue collar on one side, white on the other. This leads to strong "us vs them" tribal instincts to prevail. I don't think that dichotomy is as strong in tech industries, if it exists at all.

Very interesting observation.

I had always seen the fight as between capital and labor. But then again, I'm an elitist white urbanite.

The book Democracy at Work (linked upthread) attempts to find a third way. Worker owned democratically run organizations. My personal interest comes from when I used democratic decision making on my own teams, to great effect. Alas, we didn't control the capital, so our efforts had limited broader success.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#87

Post by quinequine »

Kalium wrote: post #20

What could I expect to change in my daily working life by joining your "new model union"? Unions got buy-in from workers because they offered tangible benefits to workers. Shorter days, medical care, better pay, and so on. The items you list are public policy concerns that align well with a variety of advocacy groups. In virtually all cases, a specialist advocacy group seems better-suited to addressing the problem th…

You're right. Most developers could care less about anything that doesn't impact their daily working life.

But I would argue that issues like wage suppression, security, and privacy have a huge impact on our work-life balance, income and the software we write.

An organization of developers dedicated to collective bargaining would be able to support advocacy groups and give them teeth in their dealings with large multinational corporations and even governments.

Would you agree?

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#88

Post by quinequine »

mrmaximus wrote: post #21

"Why am I getting reprimanded?" "Because you ran a unit test..." "What is wrong with that?" "It's Brian's job to press that key, not yours. You violated Union rules"

Ehh, there's a reason I started the thread off with "not your Dad or Grandma's union". :)

Why can't there be another way than the way our grandparents' unionized?

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#89

Post by quinequine »

LyndsySimon wrote: post #18

I can only speak for myself, but I will never join a union. It's a political thing for me. I know not everyone feels that way, but I also know that I'm not the only one strongly opposed to unionization.

I completely understand. How do you feel about collective bargaining in general?

Consider a case where let's say the founder of an extremely successful yet 50 person software company sells the company for an ungodly sum ($250mil+) to Corporation X but as a part of that deal this founder doesn't provide any equity to 80% of his/her employees who helped build the company?

What should they do then?

Re: Ask HN: Why don't developers unionize?

#90

Post by quinequine »

gigatexal wrote: post #34
quinequine wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on where you're at, right? You'll find tons of developers on Upwork willing to work for less. Isn't that the future for most of us? We're tomorrow's factory workers. Corporations have already shown that they'll work to suppress wages. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L... The long game is to promote STEM fields and increase supply - pushing down wages and benefits.

So not teaching more people engineering is a good thing? Are you really advocating ignorance to artificially constrain the supply in the market of competent engineers? Non-competes, no-poaching, etc and illegal acts to constrain salaries are deplorable, yes, but are you going to be able to change the profit motive of business? Nope. What you can change is how you market yourself and seeking other opportunities for in…

Good point but you misunderstood my argument. It's in the interests of corporations to push up supply and if you look they are doing just that.

My concern is that without a counterbalance of developers advocating in the interest of the workforce; individuals will always be at a disadvantage.

Why? In a business everything comes second to profits and the accumulation of capital. Anyone who has worked at a startup outside of the US coasts knows this well.

I'm not saying we employ the old methods of unionization, but what am I saying is that we need collective bargaining.

It's up to us to identify a modern model that addresses your concerns.

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